[Tijdreiziger]

Why would everyone know that? Not everyone has experience in sysops, especially not beginners.

E.g. when I first started learning webdev, I didn’t think about ‘servers’. I just knew that if I uploaded my HTML/PHP files to my shared web host, then they appeared online.

It was only much later that I realized that shared webhosting is ‘just’ an abstraction over Linux/Apache (after all, I first had to learn about those topics).

[scarface_74]

I am saying that most people who come on HN and say “there is no such thing as serverless and there are servers somewhere” think they are sounding smart when they are adding nothing to the conversation.

I’m sure you knew that your code was running on computers somewhere even when you first started and wasn’t running in a literal “cloud”.

It’s about as tiring as people on HN who know just a little about LLMs thinking they are sounding smart when they say they are just advanced autocomplete. Both responses are just as unproductive

[Tijdreiziger]

> I’m sure you knew that your code was running on computers somewhere even when you first started and wasn’t running in a literal “cloud”.

Meh, I just knew that the browser would display HTML if I wrote it, and that uploading the HTML files made them available on my domain. I didn’t really think about where the files went, specifically.

Try asking an average high school kid how cloud storage works. I doubt you’ll get any further than ‘I make files on my Google Docs and then they are saved there’. This is one step short of ‘well, the files must be on some system in some data center’.

I really disagree that “people who come on HN and say “there is no such thing as serverless and there are servers somewhere” think they are sounding smart when they are adding nothing to the conversation.” On the contrary, it’s an invitation to beginning coders to think about what the ‘serverless’ abstraction actually means.

[fenomas]

> an invitation to beginning coders to think about

If that's how it's phrased, and it's in a spot where that's on-topic, then obviously nobody would mind.

This subthread is talking about cases where there's a technical conversation going on and somebody derails it to argue about terminology.

[scarface_74]

If we can’t count on people on Hacker News to know that code runs on computers, what is this forum for?

[Tijdreiziger]

Is Hacker News only for experienced coders who are already familiar with the inner workings of the ‘cloud’?

I’d like to think that this forum is also a place for the proverbial high school kid, who’s just learned JavaScript and deployed their first site to Vercel using their school Chromebook, to learn a thing or two from the greybeards.

[scarface_74]

No. But it isn’t too much to expect people to know that code runs on computers and that the “cloud” is made up of computers running in a server room somewhere

[godelski]

I think they fumbled with wording but I interpreted them as meaning "audience of HN" and it seems they confirmed.

We always are speaking to our audience, right? This is also what makes more general/open discussions difficult (e.g. talking on Twitter/Facebook/etc). That there are many ways to interpret anything depending on prior knowledge, cultural biases, etc. But I think it is fair that on HN we can make an assumption that people here are tech savvy and knowledgeable. We'll definitely overstep and understep at times, but shouldn't we also cultivate a culture where it is okay to ask and okay to apologize for making too much of an assumption?

I mean at the end of the day we got to make some assumptions, right? If we assume zero operating knowledge then comments are going to get pretty massive and frankly, not be good at communicating with a niche even if better at communicating with a general audience. But should HN be a place for general people? I think no. I think it should be a place for people interested in computers and programming.

[Tijdreiziger]

See my reply here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44501642

[godelski]

I did. I referenced it too

[Tijdreiziger]

That’s impossible, because your reply was posted 19 hours ago, while the one I linked was posted 1 hour ago :)

[godelski]

I'm a time traveler! Jeremy Bearimy baby

Joking aside, I read too quickly. I got my wires crossed when I responded, mixing up who was who. My bad >.<

But I do agree with scarface and disagree with you. Let me try to respond to this directly. There's a lot to unpack here, but I do ask that you actually read the whole thing. There is nuance here and I think it is important.

  > I’d like to think that this forum is also a place for the proverbial high school kid ... to learn a thing or two from the greybeards.

I agree that HN is *also* this place.

But I still do not believe that means we need to assume non-expertise.

Think of HN as a place that "greybeards" (or more accurately, experts. Because only few have gray beards) hang out, but there is no gatekeeping. We don't check your credentials when you come in nor do we ask you to pass any tests of skill. It's open to all. But this is still the place "experts" hang out. Because we don't check for credentials, we'll treat noobs as peers. Why are you saying this is bad?

Anyone is welcome to sit at the "adult table", but that means having adult conversations. Right? It'd be pretty... childish... for a child to sit at the adult table and expect everyone to start talking about kid stuff.

It's okay if newbies come in and don't understand what is being discussed. In fact, being confused is the very first step to learning! I'll put it this way: the first year (maybe 2) of my PhD I was just reading papers and had no idea what was going on. I had to work and work to understand. Had to ask lots of questions to lots of people (consequently getting over the fear of feeling dumb as well as the fear of asking questions). Then, at some point in time I realized I do know what's going on and being discussed. This is a critical skill to becoming a graybeard. You'll constantly have to wade through waters where you're in well over your head.

It is learning through immersion.

We should help noobs. I frequently say "you can't have wizards without noobs." I don't want to gatekeep and I do actually think we should help the noobs. I need this to be clear[1]

BUT that doesn't mean we should change our conversations between ourselves. To do so would destroy the very reason we come here. There are so few places on the internet where you can talk and operate under the assumption that the other person is reasonable well informed about tech. Frankly, many of those places get destroyed because they get dominated by noobs who change the average level of conversation. While we don't want to kick out noobs, it is *THEIR PREROGATIVE* to ask for help and ask for people to elaborate. There's no shame in this. It's the exact same thing we expect from another expert! It is treating noobs equally. And frankly, if people do make fun of the noobs or treat them disrespectfully I'll gladly downvote, flag them, and likely chastise them. Such a response is rather common around here too (which is what makes it welcoming to noobs).

Ultimately, unless we start credential checking (aka gatekeeping) we have 2 options:

  - Treat everyone as experts
  - Treat everyone as noobs

If we have to modify our language and explain every subtle nuanced detail, well... why would I come here? I'm already a fairly verbose person, and I don't want to write textbooks. I don't expect people to read textbooks either!

I don't come to HN to teach. Nor do I want to come here to be lectured. I would find it insulting if the presumption was that I was a noob.

I come to talk with my peers. Some are direct peers, with expertise in my domain, and some are not. I happily ask questions to those with expertise in other domains and so should noobs. But unless someone makes a pretty egregious assumption (e.g. a very niche subject), then pretty much nobody is going to say something about it. That's perfectly okay. Frankly, being comfortable with not knowing and asking for someone to elaborate is one of the, if not *THE*, most important skill required to become a graybeard. You can't know everything, even about a highly specific domain. There's infinite depth and infinite breadth.

So if you don't know, just ask. It's okay. That's really the only way we can both have expert communities AND not gatekeep.

So I ask you:

Where can g̶r̶a̶y̶b̶e̶a̶r̶d̶s̶ experts go to hang out? Specifically, to hang out with other experts.

TLDR:

If you walk into a biker bar, don't chastise someone who assumes you know something about motorcycles.

[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44492437

[1] I even taught a lot during my PhD and was a rather popular TA. The reason being that I am more than happy to help and even would extend my office hours to make sure students got their questions answered. A class is formed through a partnership, not a dictatorship.