[ChrisMarshallNY]

This is the case.

I did a lot of work on hardware drivers and control software, and true testing would often require designing a mock that could cost a million, easy.

I've had issues, with "easy mocks"[0].

A good testing mock needs to be of at least the same Quality level as a shipping device.

[0] https://littlegreenviper.com/concrete-galoshes/#story_time

[fleventynine]

I've had a lot of success writing driver test cases against the hardware's RTL running in a simulation environment like verilator. Quick to setup and very accurate, the only downside is the time it takes to run.

And if you want to spend the time to write a faster "expensive mock" in software, you can run your tests in a "side-by-side" environment to fix any differences (including timing) between the implementations.

[necovek]

It's cool to learn about Verilator: I've been proposing our HW teams give us the simulations based on their HW design for us to target with SW, but I am so out of the loop on HW development, that I can't push them in this direction (because they'll just give me: "that's interesting, but it's hard", which frustrates me to no end).

Can you perhaps do a write-up of what you've done and how "slow" it was, and if you've got ideas to make it faster?

[thrtythreeforty]

The hardest part is toolchains, for two reasons. First, Verilator doesn't have complete SV language support, although it's gotten better. Second, hardware has a tendency to accumulate some of the most contorted build systems I've ever seen and most hardware engineers don't actually know how to extricate it.

Once it's actually successfully run through Verilator, it's a C++ interface. Very easy to integrate if your sim already has a notion of "clock tick."

[necovek]

I like to put it on its head: a proper fake for any component should be designed by the authors of the component: they can provide one to the same behaviour relatively cheaply.

With hardware, I try to ask for simulated HW based on the designs, but I usually don't get ever it.

[convolvatron]

If I'm working next to the hardware group, I generally write my own. this allows me to make progress on drivers/firmware before hardware is available. if its an asic we can even spend a little time making it run in the DV environment - they get vectors for free and overall we get more confidence that the firmware/driver is going to work on delivered silicon.

if something doesn't work on actual hardware, now we're in a really good place to have to a conversation. clearly the simulator differs from the actual design, and we can just focus on sussing that out. otherwise the conversation can be alot more difficult and can devolve into 'hardware's broken' vs 'software person doesn't have a clue'.

[maccard]

> A good testing mock needs to be of at least the same Quality level as a shipping device.

unfortunately I disagree - it needs to be the same quality as the device. If youe mock is reliable but your device isn't, you have a problem.

[ChrisMarshallNY]

Good point.

That was actually sort of the problem I had, in my story.