[acdha]

Nobody forgets that, it’s just that abuse and misconduct sour that. In many communities, people have to weigh the odds that reporting a crime will lead to more problems for them than it will help, with consequences ranging from lack of help to theft to rape or even being shot by mistake. American police departments have largely set themselves above the law, so the average person doesn’t know whether they’re getting a good cop who is genuinely trying to help them or the bad cop whose behavior has been covered up by their fellow officers for years. Anyone concerned about public opinion of police should be focused on accountability and oversight to rebuild public trust.

[AlexandrB]

Let's be real. For all their flaws, US cops are some of the least corrupt in the world. There are places where you better be ready to fork over cash every time you encounter the police.

[afavour]

> US cops are some of the least corrupt in the world

I don't think that's a good metric to judge them by (I also don't think it's true if you compare to first world countries).

Sure, third world countries have police forces that are more corrupt. But US cops are corrupt in a wide variety of ways and we should be very clear about how unacceptable that is. It doesn't matter if someone somewhere else in the world is worse.

[jvergeldedios]

I've never understood the "be happy you're not in authoritarian Russia" type of argument for papering over the shortcomings of circumstances here in the US. Like, ok? Why are we comparing ourselves to places that are worse? Shouldn't we be striving to make things better relative to our own ideals and standards?

[babypuncher]

It's like any economic discussion I have when visiting my parents. I'll advocate for something every other developed nation has, like paid paternity leave or a sane healthcare system, and they immediately start talking about communist East Germany like that's somehow relevant.

Yeah, we know cops in Mexico are corrupt. Our police force has a very different problem set that we need to solve. Pointing out a different problem in a different country contributes nothing.

[jakeydus]

yOu LiVE iN sOCiEtY YeT yOu CritIciZe SoCiETY

[hellojesus]

> I'll advocate for something every other developed nation has, like paid paternity leave or a sane healthcare system

Paid parental leave creates both deadweight loss and moral hazard. It also tends to reduce labor inversely proportional to labor's cost, with the largest reduction in labor hitting highly skilled, sub middle-aged females. This should be obvious as it lowers the expected productivity of workers, moreso when you extend parental leave to family leave and allow for the care of ailing elders. The argument for it seems to hinge on the dollars allowing greater workforce participation, but I'm not sold that greater participation with lower expected productivity is greater than fewer productive workers.

Why should I have to pay for Debbie across the country to have a kid? Or Fred across the state?

Regarding healthcare, it's well known that decreasing prices increase demand. While some healthcare demand is totally inelastic (injuries, cancer, etc.), the front line pcp interactions are elastic. Compound in people's willingness to decrease self care since they don't have to pay for future healthcare, and you've increased the rate of inelastic demand instances in the future, increasing demand. Now consider that prices would no longer be dictated by free markets, and now we have trouble with price discovery, with the power seemingly going to the single consumer, so it's likely treatments will be underpaid, which may lead to fewer practicioners and fewer innovations. Maybe I'm wrong... I haven't thought about heath economics in a long while. My preference would be to see a forced decoupling of healthcare provided as work benefits such that everyone had to purchase it on the open market (even if that loss of negotiating freedom between private parties irks me).

[HaZeust]

>"Why should I have to pay for Debbie across the country to have a kid? Or Fred across the state?"

Because they pay for the same benefits you get, that they might not reap as often as you. That's the foundation of socialization, everyone's resources - that they fork over from taxation - is shared for various activities and settlements that give as many individuals (past, present and emerging) as much of an acceptable baseline of living as it can.

To be sure, the goal of socialization is also not usually to make everyone rich or give immense quality of life, it's to make sure everyone has the same "lowest" bar for things that members of society deem as essential, and that the bar set as "lowest" is as humane and efficient as possible.

[immibis]

The people who say they don't want the government to help pay for raising children are the same people who complain about low birth rates. You can't eat your cake and still have it. Would you like sustainable population or would you like low taxes? You can't have both.

Sensible government programs aren't deadweight loss - they are net gains - although a lot of what governments do, especially what the US government does, is not sensible. For example, you pay taxes to have property rights, and I don't think you think that is deadweight loss.

Meanwhile your concern about "why should I pay for someone else?" is literally just insurance but I bet you have insurance, and you only hate insurance when the government does it.

[trealira]

>Why should I have to pay for Debbie across the country to have a kid? Or Fred across the state?

It's a net benefit to society encourage people to have kids and keep the number of births closer to replacement rate.

[lokar]

What do you think your retirement savings represent? They are a claim on goods and services to be produced by a future generation. For that to work there has to be a future generation of sufficient productive capacity. If population declines faster then productivity increases the system will collapse.

Look at what is happening to South Korea.

[mindslight]

You're missing the elephant in the room that our society doesn't have enough distributed wealth to allow most people to pay for their own time off.

I too hate the top-down prescriptivism of narrow "benefit" policies administered by employers. But until we fix the economy so most people have the market power to tell their employer they're taking 3-6+ months off for $whatever, have the savings to pay for it, and be confident that that either their employer will want them back at the end or that they will be able to find a different employer, then it's what we're stuck with. So if you really want to reform this, then work towards fixing wealth inequality.

(The healthcare thing is a politically radioactive topic. It would be fantastic to prevent employers anticompetitively bundling healthcare with employment, but it would take a lot of political capital to rise above fearmongering to people with "good" employer plans and the desire of politicians to lean on the current system out of expedience)

[AlexandrB]

I can't speak for other first world countries, but Canada has its share of police misconduct. The most recent example is the mishandling of the 22-person killing spree in Nova Scotia[1], and the Toronto police are so famously bad at investigating sex crimes and protecting victims that an entire book was written on the subject[2].

[1] https://www.vice.com/en/article/canada-police-mistakes-novia...

[2] https://www.amazon.ca/Story-Jane-Doe-Book-About/dp/067931275...

[sgnelson]

incompetence =/= corruption.

[heavyset_go]

Corruption allows incompetence to thrive. Deliberate inaction can also be whitewashed as "incompetence".

[acdha]

If you define “corrupt” as not asking for bribes on duty, perhaps. If you use the common definition of the term to include things like being bound by the law the same as the average person, however, that’s tragically untrue. Officers routinely cover up the misconduct of their fellows and force rehiring of the few officers who are held accountable even for serious crimes.

[indymike]

We do have good police in the US.

But I'd prefer not to interact in their official capacity with them if possible because there is a non-zero chance that the specific officer I'm talking to is not one of the good ones.

I recently had a run in where I was photographing a duck on the roof of a house. A cop literally ran up to me and asked what I was doing with his hand on his gun, holster released. I was fortunate that he realized how nuts his behavior was when I pointed out that I was taking a picture of a crazy duck sitting on a chimney. I also realized that I probably would have been shot had I not been calm and polite.

[chasd00]

i'm not a cop super fan or anything but i did make it a point to wave at and get to know the officers that patrol my neighborhood. I've had them stop by when walking my dogs to let me know that they got a call about a suspicious person and to keep an eye out. Maybe it comes from working in consulting but that level of relationship with police officers is very useful to me as an individual.

[indymike]

Not being injured or worse is always a good thing. I find the amount of violence in law enforcement is a little out of control. Too many news stories about an 89 year old lady being beat over a turn signal traffic stop, wanting to know why they are being detained or for having an opinion contrary to Officer Pepper Spray.

[jimt1234]

This has been down-voted a lot, but I actually kinda agree, at least with the second assertion. I've been going down to Baja, Mexico frequently for years, and, as an American (white dude), you quickly learn that you're a target for local police - you're basically their ATM. And there's absolutely nothing you can do about it. You just do your best to avoid them, like agents in The Matrix.

[WarOnPrivacy]

>> For all their flaws, US cops are some of the least corrupt

> I actually kinda agree,

It is my long and consistent experience (MI spouse) that the quality of police officers depends on the quality of the police chief.

We had good, experienced officers here a generation ago. A funding-addicted sheriff was elected. He fired cops w/ decades of exp and replaced them with just-graduated kids. The remaining cops were subject to some kind of dept environment that left them half-unhinged.

Addicted sheriff quit after a few terms and his replacement was pretty good for a while. Now he's average, so kind of crappy.

[watwut]

Germany, Finland, France, Sweden, Canada ... when you compare them to most corrupt states, you are not proving they are best. You are peoving they are not absolute bottom.

That being said, America is unique in officially allowing cops to kill people just because of how they feel, with no objective reason for it.

[account42]

In Germany you are not even allowed to insult the police and they do use that to go after people they don't like.

[L3viathan]

While true, that is true for everyone, there's no special law about police.

[shadowgovt]

Speaking of Germany, can you think of other points in history where the public banded together to subvert police authority and hide their neighbors from the cops?

Why did they do that?

[potato3732842]

It's not that they're corrupt in the literal sense. It's that they have discretion of enforcement of laws so expansive with so many precedents in their favor that they basically have de-facto power to arrest anyone and that when they do want to do something stupid they're not "corrupt" so you can't just pay them off to be reasonable.

[9283409232]

LA Police are a literal gang. There are places with police that are corrupt in more obvious ways such as places in Africa but to say US cops are some of the least corrupt is ridiculous.

[AlexandrB]

This is a very sheltered take. Go south of the border to Mexico (you don't need to go anywhere as far as Africa) and you can experience getting pulled over for no reason by a cop looking for a payout. That's not to mention that cartels are allowed to run rampant and collect "protection" in Mexican cities because the cops either don't care, are in the cartel themselves, or are being paid off.

As I said to another commenter, "some of the least corrupt" != "not corrupt". I'm sure some countries are better, but there are not that many.

[9283409232]

You don't need to go south of the border. You can get pulled over for no reason in the US and have drugs planted on you by a cop simply having a bad day. I'm not interpreting least corrupt as no corruption. I think least corrupt is still a ridiculous statement.

[KingMob]

"Sheltered take"? Your only concern about police malfeasance seems to be money.

Many people have WAY worse concerns. There's a sheltered view here, but it's not the one you're thinking of.

[bobsomers]

This is Whataboutism. What the police are like in Mexico is irrelevant to someone living in the United States.

[Whoppertime]

I remember the Dorner controversy. I hoped it would force a spotlight on the LAPD and their bad behaviour. I thought wrong

[lupusreal]

Credit where credit is due, American cops are considerably less corrupt than American politicians. Most people in America would never even dream of trying to pay off a cop to get out of a speeding ticket, that sort of thing just doesn't work and everybody knows it. On the other hand, bribing local politicians to get some land rezoned for your business, or some other similar crap? That's just standard operating procedure in small towns everywhere.

[mlinhares]

Dude, I paid to have stickers and "sheriff cards" to make it less likely cops are going to stop me cos i'm a "friend of the police".

Its wild to read cops in the US are not corrupt, did people just not read modern US history? Prohibition? Civil rights? Union busting? The Pinkertons?

[korse]

Funny story about the Pinkertons if you don't already know... if you skateboard or do similar shenanigans involving parking structures or industrial wasteland, you've probably been chased by their direct descendants.

[1] https://www.securitas.com/en/newsroom/press-releases_list/se...

[Volundr]

Hey! I resemble that remark!

I worked as a security guard through college. Never chased a skateboarder, but I did ask them nicely to leave at least once a week.

[FireBeyond]

> Dude, I paid to have stickers and "sheriff cards" to make it less likely cops are going to stop me cos i'm a "friend of the police".

In many states the FOP stickers and cards are almost like "registration". You get the sticker to put on your card and just like vehicle registration, a year to show you're current. The FOP will say that's just to "show your ongoing support", but it's rather hard not to see it as "are you paid up? you don't get to get a sticker ten years ago...".

Various FOPs have also sued or done eBay take downs of people selling the "year sticker".

[potato3732842]

They're not literally corrupt. There's just a huge amount of conflict of interests, bad incentives and bad behavior.

People play fast and loose with the word "corrupt" the same way they do with "conspiracy".

[mlinhares]

You could try searching "police corruption in the US" before saying they're not literally corrupt.

They will literally grab a cop that was prosecuted and found guilty, hide the records and have them hired in some other police force in a nearby town. There's a whole mafia setup going on, organized by their unions, we're not far from having "police controlled neighborhoods" like in many LATAM countries.

[potato3732842]

Yeah, corruption happens but it's not endemic nor is it accessible to the everyman.

Yeah they'll bend the law for their buddies but we cannot just shove money in their face to make them be reasonable when they bother us like you can in Mexico. Instead we have to shove 10x as much into all manner of rent seeking systems to maintain an air of legitimacy (this last part is a gripe I have with most government stuff here, not just law enforcement related).

[heavyset_go]

I don't know what you'd call literal police gangs that kill people for initiation rites, kill their own whistleblowers, etc other than corruption.

https://knock-la.com/tradition-of-violence-lasd-gang-history...

[AlexandrB]

"least corrupt" != "not corrupt"

What you're describing is bad but also pretty mild by international standards.

[michael1999]

If you are comparing to northern Mexico, sure. If you are comparing to northern Europe, LMAO.

With FOP stickers, "courtesy cards", placard abuse, and violent impunity, there's lots of corruption going around.

https://apnews.com/article/nypd-courtesy-card-police-miscond...

[SpicyLemonZest]

Corruption just doesn't have much to do with the kind of misconduct that comes up in the US. It's true, yes, that an American officer who's decided to mistreat you won't usually accept a bribe to stop.

[KingMob]

As someone who lives in a SEA country, I'm 100x safer with a local cop who wants a few bucks at a traffic stop than with any American cop.

[ang_cire]

If we're limiting 'corruption' to just be about bribes, then sure. Of course, in reality it also encompasses racism, nepotism, etc (i.e. anything that is a "corruption" of the impartial execution of their jobs).

I suspect many Black people would prefer paying a bribe to being killed by police at an outsize ratio, or paying a bribe to being charged more aggressively and sentenced more harshly.

Police brutality and incarceration is worse than bribes, my dude.

[chrisjj]

> Nobody forgets that

Disproven already: "Interacting with cops will never make your day better"

[dpkirchner]

First, words like always and never should be to mean nearly always and nearly never. That's just colloquial English.

Second, I doubt many victims feel like their days are better after talking with the police. Just look at the abysmal solve rates.

[chrisjj]

> First, words like always and never should be to mean nearly always and nearly never.

Good luck petitioning the dictionary! :)