[kstrauser]

You're so right. I'm not afraid of the cops, especially not ICE flunkies, but interactions with law enforcement has never made my day more convenient and pleasant. It's not that I'd hide anything from them, as much as for me it's a bureaucratic hassle I'd just as soon not have to deal with.

Out of curiosity, does anyone know, officially, how much a multi-generation born-in-America person is actually obligated to cooperate with or answer to ICE?

[hayst4ck]

> how much a multi-generation born-in-America person is actually obligated to cooperate with or answer to ICE?

This is the wrong question. The right question is "who will hold them accountable if they violate your rights or try to punish you for lack of obedience?"

[potato3732842]

>"who will hold them accountable

Politicians looking to score brownie points with either the public or the state itself.

So basically you're SOL if you're not a more equal animal or connected to them (Skip Gates), a public persona (Whistlin Diesel), attractive woman (Karen Read, though you can argue that nobody has held the cops accountable on this one, yet) or highly sympathetic individual.

There is some argument to be made that the truth comes out eventually in these sorts of matters but that's not gonna make Breonna Taylor any less dead or the Phonesavanh's kid from being any less disabled.

I think the Floyd factor also prevents cops who are alone or in a pair from escalating stuff unnecessarily as much as they used to which is where a lot of these abuses historically come from.

[danudey]

Most elected politicians at this point are happy to repeat the same lies of "this person was arrested because they were being violent/interfering/were acting suspiciously/refused to identify themselves" even if there is multiple sources of video evidence to the contrary. Republicans in particular have no interest in the truth where it conflicts with the claims they want to make to advance their agenda, and most Democrats are too toothless to call out this misbehavior with the force and passion it deserves.

And when they do call it out, people will be told by Fox News and others that "this senator is opposed to the work ICE is doing to solve the problem of illegal immigrants", and other news agencies will say "such-and-such official says this senator is opposed to..." and the propaganda will spread and people will believe it.

[jahewson]

So there’s this thing called the judiciary…

[netsharc]

In this thread: you slowly realizing that you live in an increasingly corrupt despotic police state...

Sure you might be fine (they just harass the brown and black people), but it doesn't mean the problem doesn't exist.

[jkestner]

Oh yeah, those guys who came up with qualified immunity.

[hayst4ck]

OK, I don't disagree, but there is nothing that guarantees the judiciary will act constitutionally or protect people's rights, so "who will hold the judiciary accountable if they violate your rights, try to punish you for lack of obedience, or fail to hold those who violate peoples rights accountable?""

[watwut]

Pretty much all layers say judiciary is deferential to cops and prosecution to the point of absurdity.

[shermantanktop]

North Korea has a judiciary. So does Iran. So does China. They all have the rough equivalent of a Supreme Court too.

A judiciary can only function as a check on other types of power when it is allowed to do so. Merely being called by that name is not enough.

[potato3732842]

>Out of curiosity, does anyone know, officially, how much a multi-generation born-in-America person is actually obligated to cooperate with or answer to ICE?

You don't have to say anything to them without a court order but obviously they're still cops so they can screw you if you make a jerk of yourself doing it.

[bbor]

Legally speaking, they need signed arrest warrants. Being "multi-generation" (aka "clearly white"?) doesn't factor into it -- all residents are owed this protection, AFAIK. In this way, they have much less power than local PD or Sheriffs.

Practically speaking, of course, there's news stories every week about them arresting citizens, even when they're saying stuff like "please, check my wallet, my ID is in there!". I haven't followed up, but I'd be shocked if any of these incidents resulted in any sort of reparations for the victim.

As a side note, I'd be way more afraid of "flunkies" than any other type of law enforcement. Getting arrested is bad, but getting shot by someone with terrible trigger discipline and no training is worse... At best, they're especially aggressive, masked cops with absolutely zero accountability.

[kstrauser]

> Being "multi-generation" (aka "clearly white"?) doesn't factor into it -- all residents are owed this protection, AFAIK.

That's my understanding, too. I do happen to be white, but by multi-generation, I mean that I'm not a recent immigrant, nor are my parents, or theirs, so ICE doesn't have any clear power over me that I'm aware of. Similarly, the vast majority of my Black neighbors have been here for many, many years; same deal for them.

> As a side note, I'd be way more afraid of "flunkies" than any other type of law enforcement.

Same here. Being arrested for a BS reason would be quite the hassle, but it sure beats getting shot by a masked try-hard.

[davidw]

> ICE doesn't have any clear power over me that I'm aware of

They have a bunch of guys with guns. Maybe no warrants or id's or anything legal like that, but guns are probably enough.

With this latest bill, they are going to be one of the largest armed forces in the world. They'll get more money than the US Marines.

[hayst4ck]

Citizenship comes from law. Enforcers and the judiciary choose which law to enact and how to enact them. If enforcers of the "law" are more loyal to the administration than the constitution, then the law and all it's implications, such as citizenship, are up to the arbitrary whims of our new king coronated by the supreme court.

That's the problem with not defending Rule of Law. If law is arbitrary and only serves the interests of one person and isn't grounded in some greater objective truth, then it doesn't matter what is officially allowed or not. If judges and enforcers are loyalists then they get to make the call whether your lack of cooperation is obstruction of justice or not. Who is going to punish them for violating your rights? Other ICE agents? The DOJ? You might not even be given standing to fight for your rights in court.

An ICE agent may choose not to believe you are a US citizen and call your documents fake, and put you in a concentration camp or deport you to El Salvador.

As with Kilmar we saw that ICE can act without due process, and due process is what determines your citizenship status.

Trump is also openly talking about revoking the citizenship of citizens.

It's worth a reading about de-naturalization: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denaturalization#Human_rights

[SpicyLemonZest]

In many states you’re required to identify yourself, but cooperation with law enforcement is otherwise never required. My sense is that ICE generally still releases citizens swiftly, and if they don’t think you’re a citizen for some reason you’re not going to win an argument about it on the spot no matter how much you cooperate.