[Boogie_Man]

I am personally extremely tired of seeing random misbehaved non service breeds in red amazon.com vests which say "service dog". It's entitled, disrespectful to the public, disrespectful to the rule of law, and disrespectful to individuals who legitimately require a service animal. I will loudly state "oh nice it's one of those fake service dogs" at the aquarium, you cannot stop me. I also loudly announce "No dogs on the walking path, thank you citizen" at the public park when people ignore posted signs. Every single square foot of our world is not a playground for the invasive species you keep exclusively for emotional and social benefits. My productive milk cow, on the other hand...

[darth_avocado]

Most of the responses usually devolve into emotional ones, both from dog lovers and dog haters. As a dog owner I support common sense acceptable rules:

1. No dogs in stores that have fresh produce, dairy and meat 2. No off leash dogs in public areas except in dedicated off leash areas 3. No dogs in restaurants indoors 4. Severe penalties if you parade your unbehaved dog as a service dog

But at the same time, dog haters keep pushing it to the point where you cannot have dogs beyond the confines of your home (the home cannot be an apartment building). People don’t want dogs in apartments and they don’t want them in ANY public areas. The same people will also oppose dedicated dog parks or ensure these parks are extremely small.

Around half the households in the country have a dog. There needs to be a middle ground.

[lotsofpulp]

The problem is “dog” encompasses 20lb to 40lb poodles and shitzus and 60lb to 100lb pitbulls and Rottweilers that can be more dangerous than wild animals that we don’t allow in public.

And those with short fur that don’t shed a lot or are less allergenic and those with long fur that cover the whole space with their hairs.

My toddle has less rights to exist in a space outside their home compared to a dog capable of severely hurting them (and has many times in the past) specifically bred to be aggressive that does not let go after they bite.

This happened to my daughter in the first couple weeks of kindergarten. The class is supposed to line up outside in the morning before the teacher takes them into school, and some mom decided to bring their extremely large pitbull and park it 5 feet away from all the 5 year olds in line.

There was no chance this woman would have been able to control her dog, yet she had the right to keep a dangerous animal 5 feet away from my daughter. I told the school to take my daughter inside and keep her away or I was taking her home, and they had my daughter wait inside the office.

It makes no sense that any other large animal with similar characteristics as a large pitbull would have been disallowed, but because a pitbull falls under dog, it is allowed.

[jfengel]

Breed and size are less predictive of danger than level of training. An 8 pound Chihuahua can do serious damage if it's badly trained. A properly trained Rottweiler is absolutely bomb-proof. It's certainly capable of more damage, but it won't.

Pit bulls are no more dangerous than any other breed. They have a bad reputation because they are popular among dog-fighters, but pit bulls (and pit mixes) make excellent pets -- so long as they are trained. And they're easier to deal with than many working breeds, who quickly become dangerously anxious if you don't give them a job. (Pits, by contrast, are mostly couch potatoes.)

All of that said... most dogs do not belong in public, at least in the US. (Some other countries have a longer tradition of dogs in public, and they routinely train their dogs to behave well.) That is even more important in enclosed spaces, where neither you nor the dog can put distance between you if there is a problem.

The upshot: find a training class, and take it. The class isn't training your dog; it's training you. You have to take it seriously and do the homework. The dog is not a machine to be programmed by somebody else.

[lotsofpulp]

>Breed and size are less predictive of danger than level of training. An 8 pound Chihuahua can do serious damage if it's badly trained. A properly trained Rottweiler is absolutely bomb-proof. It's certainly capable of more damage, but it won't.

Level of damage is a component of danger. I am not worried about the damage an 8lb chihuahua will do to my kid, that can most likely be healed, and most people can stop the attack without weapons.

I am worried that the only way I can save my kid from a pit bull or similar dog is with a knife or gun, and even then, the damage will be severe.

> Pit bulls are no more dangerous than any other breed. They have a bad reputation because they are popular among dog-fighters, but pit bulls (and pit mixes) make excellent pets -- so long as they are trained.

The same can be said of tigers and hyenas and lions and chimps and bears.

[OkayPhysicist]

> The same can be said of tigers and hyenas and lions and chimps and bears.

When we spend 20,000 years breeding obedience into any of those, I'm sure they'll be fine in public, too.

[darth_avocado]

A lot of this seems uninformed projection of your own fears. Your toddler quite literally has more rights to exist in a space not your home than a dog. Unless you mean to say that as long as dogs exist in a public space, your child’s existence is threatened.

Untrained pitbulls can be dangerous, but did the dog display any aggression at any point? Or is the whole story just “a well trained dog was in the vicinity of children, presumably not off leash, and I did not like that because I fear for my children all the time”? And are you actually allergic to dog fur or are you more concerned about the fictional person who may be allergic to dog fur, but only to the fur from larger dogs? Because the reality of dog allergies is that they are not really caused by the fur itself, regardless of the size.

Btw this is what I meant when I pointed that most discussions are emotional than rooted in reality.

[lotsofpulp]

>Unless you mean to say that as long as dogs exist in a public space, your child’s existence is threatened.

No, I am saying that public places are not allowed to say a dog cannot exist there, so effectively my choice (and more often than not these days) is to take my kid and leave, or have my kid be in the same space as the dog. This includes playgrounds, restaurants, grocery stores, etc. Every dog is a service dog.

>Untrained pitbulls can be dangerous, but did the dog display any aggression at any point?

Why would I wait for it to display aggression? Just like any other animal that is capable of causing a lot of damage, I would be on alert, and preferably keep my kid away. There is obviously no possibility to react quickly enough to stop a large animal from hurting someone a few feet away.

>Or is the whole story just “a well trained dog was in the vicinity of children, presumably not off leash, and I did not like that because I fear for my children all the time”?

How is someone supposed to know it was well trained? Especially given the prior probabilities of the type of people who own large pitbulls in the first place. Just like you evaluate the type of people you're around (for example those with loaded weapons, brandishing knives, etc), why would it not make sense to evaluate the type of animal that is around?

>Btw this is what I meant when I pointed that most discussions are emotional than rooted in reality.

I don't see evaluating potential consequences as being emotional. You might ascribe a lower probability of injury, but I don't see it as consistent to give large dogs the benefit of the doubt just because they are dogs. Especially when all the stats indicate increased damaged from certain types.

[darth_avocado]

> This includes playgrounds, restaurants, grocery stores, etc

Dogs are most definitely not allowed in playgrounds, restaurants (unless it’s for an outdoor seating) and grocery stores.

Everything else you described is mostly you expressing your discomfort around large dogs, stemming for your parental instincts to protect your child. Which is by definition an emotional response.

> Just like you evaluate the type of people you're around

Btw there are two types of evaluations. One is situational awareness and the other is stereotyping. Looking at a large dog that’s minding its own business but complaining about it because it’s a pitbull and COULD be dangerous, fits the second type.

[yencabulator]

> Just like any other animal that is capable of causing a lot of damage, I would be on alert, and preferably keep my kid away. There is obviously no possibility to react quickly enough to stop a large animal from hurting someone a few feet away.

It's almost as if you don't realize that humans are even larger animals, also capable of causing a lot of damage.

[belorn]

> It makes no sense that any other large animal with similar characteristics as a large pitbull would have been disallowed, but because a pitbull falls under dog, it is allowed.

I will just point toward horses, which are dangerous animals, significant more dangerous than any wild animals we allow near civilization, and which no human has any ability to fully control. They weight somewhere around a car, has high risk of going out of control if spooked, and there very little anyone can do once that amount of mass is moving.

Mounted police, cart and horse ride (often on busy tourist streets), or just places that has horse rides directed toward children. We would not treat other large and dangerous animals with similar characteristics to be used as we do with horses.

[lotsofpulp]

Isn't using police horses considered animal cruelty, and an outdated mode of policing mostly used as a show of force? Same for cart and horse rides, but again, the horses are not inside of businesses and airplanes and right next to a kid.

I wouldn't want my kid to be near the legs of a random horse either. If a reputable business is offering horse rides, then I have a little extra assurance of the horse's training or the handler's capabilities.

[belorn]

> If a reputable business is offering horse rides, then I have a little extra assurance of the horse's training or the handler's capabilities.

Them what we are talking about is training. Many dog owners will agree that training is important for the well being of the dog and essential if you want to have them around other people (and dogs). For owners that want to have dogs off the leash it is extremely risky without extensive training, unless they are puppies under certain age.

The more potentially dangerous an animal is, the more training should be required before they are allowed in spaces that risk other people. Given the number of deaths and serious injuries that animals do each year to humans, it seems fairly common sense to have such requirement that scale with how high the risk is given any specific animal.

Horse riding by children would be a bit more complicated. Not sure it is possible to reduce the risk to safe levels, but then that is the role of training and certification regulations.

[hyperman1]

On our beaches and dunes, police on a horse is still a thing, especially if distance between people is high. It makes more sense than any kind of mechanical vehucle, too.

[TulliusCicero]

> I also loudly announce "No dogs on the walking path, thank you citizen" at the public park when people ignore posted signs.

???

Having a no dogs allowed rule on a walking path at a park feels so weird to me.

[Boogie_Man]

Walking path at my tennis park is for people only. No dogs, no bikes, and I'm not even allowed to skate it. Personally I'd like dogs only at dog parks but we're not there as a society.

[KeepFlying]

We need to get much safer dog parks. Too many of them are just huge areas of off leash dogs and it's terrible for the dogs involved. It breeds bad play behaviors, dog-dog reactivity, spreads disease between dogs, and encouraged bad owners who just let their dog run free unsupervised.

Dogs that spend a lot of time in dog parks are way more likely to behave badly when they see other dogs when they are out for a walk.

[TulliusCicero]

It's so weird for me to see anti dog park talk on the internet because my experience has been very positive with dog parks in general. Almost all the dogs are basically fine, serious behavioral issues are rare. Sometimes dogs get a little too rowdy playing but owners are always quick to step in. I wonder if it's a regional dog owner culture thing (I'm in a suburb of Seattle for reference).

[KeepFlying]

I think it's a side effect of one bad experience being able to cause long term problems like reactivity that takes a long time to work through.

[colechristensen]

Why? Are squirrels and butterflies banned too? Shall we sterilize the world so it's just humans and cement?

[Boogie_Man]

Dogs aren't a native species and can in fact be ecologically damaging. Squirrel population control is a question beyond my ability. Butterflies are both native and useful. Hopefully this is helpful.

[colechristensen]

Damaging the ecology of... the local tennis park? I have some news for you... the ecology there is already damaged.

[Boogie_Man]

Fallacy of relative privation

[lotsofpulp]

Squirrel and butterfly poop is not a problem. Nor are there 80lb+ squirrels and butterfly’s bred for aggressive qualities.

Tigers/lions/bears/chimps are generally not allowed either.

[aridiculous]

I personally think we have this all wrong, and that all species should have to comply with some level of public decorum to be allowed in public human-dominated spaces.

If a dog doesn't make loud noises, physically agitates others, or excessively spread diseases (slobbering all over the place), it seems fine to let them be in the same place. If someone has allergies, an agreement can usually be worked out to create distance, but if it can't we should favor the human.

So in a sense, I agree with you: They should have licenses that can be revoked based on their behavior. I don't really care if they're for service reasons or otherwise, I just care they're fit to be in public. Some dogs are, some aren't. Basically, we should be comfortable with fascistic enforcement around dog's behaviorally. That seems like a healthy middle-ground.

[antisthenes]

The cringiest hill to die on might be the hill of exaggerated moral panic.

There are about 931283918982 more important issues than someone being offended at seeing a dog in close proximity at a place where you have an opinion that they shouldn't be.

As long as your pet doesn't come in contact with my food or defecate near it, you really should focus on more important things in life.

[maxerickson]

The expectation that other people follow some basic rules of decorum is foundational to a functioning society.

If you say that petty anti-social behavior is off limits because there are bigger problems, you are ceding the decisions about how society functions to people that make bad, anti-social choices.

[Boogie_Man]

Fallacy of relative privation

[tomhow]

Please don't post duplicate comments like this, or just post the name of a fallacy as a response. It lacks substance and detracts from the kind of respectful conversation we're hoping for on HN.

[Boogie_Man]

Sorry Tom. I apologize to the moderators and other posters and will attempt to only post high quality discussion moving forward.

I notice that my initial comments are generally high quality but that I feel compelled to respond to everything and something about the increased volume, the thing I'm responding to not being directly something I picked from 30 different articles I read, and the inherent sub-current of challenge to my sometimes obstinate initial comments causes me to get defensive and snippy, and I need to work on that. A simple fix is to not respond to responses, but the edifying fix is to think about why I respond this way (inferiority complex when reading and commenting with generally higher than average internet users and/or not wanting to look stupid in front of the brainy computer people, possibly) to consider this as my bias, and to attempt to counteract it.

Thank you for your comment, sorry again.

[gatlin]

Fallacy fork: https://maartenboudry.be/2017/06/the-fallacy-fork-why-its-ti...

[antisthenes]

It's not a fallacy.

We have limited time and limited number of problems we can address.

It's only natural to prioritize them and displays a higher level of critical thinking than pointing an argument you don't like and trying to pin some made up fallacy on it.

[mtlynch]

Honest question: how can you distinguish between legitimate and illegitimate therapy dogs if the owner doesn't have a visible handicap?

Like what if a veteran struggling with PTSD has a therapy dog to help keep them emotionally regulated? Or is that a fake service animal by your defintion?

I agree that people abuse this system, but if you're publicly shaming people, how do you avoid false positives?

[ameliaquining]

Emotional support animals that don't perform a specific task never qualify as service animals; whether the human has any particular diagnosis doesn't matter.

[mtlynch]

Right, but how would one know just from walking by someone in the park whether their support animal performs a specific task?

[KeepFlying]

If you're a business ask the two legally permited questions (from the ADA):

- Is the dog a service animal required because of a disability?

- What work or task has the dog been trained to perform?

Most of the time the second question will throw off the fake owners.

[mtlynch]

No, I get that. I was responding specifically to the idea of going around trying to publicly shame people based on just seeing them with their service animal.

[arp242]

> Like what if a veteran struggling with PTSD has a therapy dog to help keep them emotionally regulated?

Is that actually a real thing? As in: I'm sure some people struggling with PTSD greatly benefit from their pets, but do they really need them at their sides 24/7 for "emotional support" and can't do some shopping without one?

[lcnPylGDnU4H9OF]

One example I’ve heard of (not endorsing the veracity, just something I’ve heard) is dogs being trained to recognize panic attacks and respond by lifting itself up and rest its forelegs on its owners shoulders and its chest on its owners chest, basically giving them a hug (which is adorable, tragedy aside).

So yes, in that context they’d be there 24/7, or near enough, but obviously that’s a different story from someone’s yorkie yapping at the DMV or whatever.

[mtlynch]

I don't have any special domain knowledge in this space, but I know that's an advertised use case for emotional support animals.[0]

I don't know if the client needs the service animal around 24/7, but if you have severe PTSD and could experience severe symptoms unexpectedly while shopping, it seems reasonable to bring along the support animal.

[0] https://www.nih.gov/news-events/news-releases/service-dogs-m...

[arp242]

That's kind of what I mean: reading that page, it just sounds like normal pet ownership, with many of the benefits that many pet owners get. That's a great thing to encourage and research, but it's not clear to me why there needs to be a special "emotional support animal" classification or the like.

[5555624]

Yes (https://theherocompany.co/pages/about-us?zCountry=US)

[ch4s3]

Generally the behavior of the animal is a dead give away. Trained service animals don't wander away from their owners, seek attention from strangers, react to other animals, eat things off of the ground, and will sit directly beside their owners or under a table if so instructed. If you see a dog behaving differently, that dog isn't a trained service animal.

[Boogie_Man]

Legit service dogs are legit, go watch footage of them working. I'll probably eventually be wrong someday and have to apologize profusely but that's the risk you run.

[stronglikedan]

Just goes to show what I've always said: People that hate dogs are just as insufferable as people that think their dogs are people.

[TeMPOraL]

People are insufferable, especially when they're contesting the same shared space over different ways of use. There' no point in hating dogs - or bicycles - they're not the problem, being inconsiderate is.

(That's for both sides, though there is a certain asymmetry in those cases. For example, my 4yo kid isn't going to kill an adult cyclist speeding down the narrow path in the park leading directly to the kindergarten, because they're in a hurry or it's some stupid "bicycle May" thing and they're scoring silly points, or something. The reverse however, is very much likely.)

[RajT88]

Are you Robocop?

[Analemma_]

The idea that only uniformed officers are allowed to enforce social norms is a major part of what got us into this mess to begin with.

[TulliusCicero]

Major whoosh moment here.

The RoboCop reference is clearly because of the phrasing:

> "No dogs on the walking path, thank you citizen"

[TeMPOraL]

That has more of a Half Life 2 vibe.

[antisthenes]

Pick up that poop, citizen.

[absurdo]

[flagged]