| > I'm not anti-immigration as you accused me of, far from it Nope. I asked if you would be as judgemental towards any other ethnic group. Notice that the immigration in question (in massive numbers) happened for the most part in the 19th century. There was a big push when the country was formed but it was related to the existing WW II displacement of population. > but I think you need to accept the fact that emigration en mass to any part of the world is not natural and will definitely causing instability. Sure. But it happened. My ancestors didn't have much of a choice and neither do I. It happened and people need to get over it. > The situation in Israel cannot be justified similarly as if the Muslim want to emigrate en mass back to Spain. However you never answer my questions what's your personal opinions regarding this similar hypothetical situation? Why would I care about Spain? You're trying to create a false equivalency and renegotiate history. Those are mute points. I get exactly why the Palestinians didn't want Jews to return to Israel, I don't blame them for that. Did I give a sense that I did? I also understand why they started the war in 1947/8. It was objectively stupid on their part as history shows. > I'd really appreciate if you can provide the valid references of the verses for the dubious promised land narrative in the Quran and Bibles with respect to modern Israel (not ancient Moses time). You must have me confused with someone else. I'm an atheist. I don't give a crap about the promised land and neither do most Israelis. We were born here, it's as simple as that. Our lineage was displaced a lot through history and we don't claim ownership of everything that was stolen from our ancestors. You're debating as if you're in the 1940s. This debate is mute. Almost all Palestinians were born outside of what is today's Israel and most Israelis were born here. > Another interesting potential fact is that most of the current Palestinians are actually the descendents from the original Jewish people living in the ancient Judea time that have converted to Islam. That is nonsense. Since Jews were literally murdered by Romans that would not have been the case. Islam didn't exist at the time. Notice that you're grasping at straws trying to invalidate an entire people, would you feel OK trying to invalidate the history/ethnicity of any other race other than Jews? > I think Israel govt can and should check the Palestinian people ancestry based on DNA test accordingly. There is actual DNA relation between Jews and Palestinians, but DNA doesn't work like people think it does. It doesn't tell us anything much. We do call Arabs/Palestinians cousins in Hebrew because religious people do believe we are related and descendants from the same line. > If that's true it will make the current Israel govt as self-hating Jews or self-hating Semite. Nope. Not a thing. > Potentially, some of the Palestinians may have higher Jews ancentors percentage from the ancient Judea Jews population than the emigrants themselves. There is no way of knowing that. What we do know is where some Palestinians came from and its often Sudan, Yemen etc. There's a strong genetic connection between them and the north African/Yemenite population though... A huge amount of them were work immigrants who came to the region in the 1920's and encouraged by the local population as a contrast to the Jewish immigration. This goes both ways. > According to reluable sources only a few percents or around less than 3% of land properties were legally bought by the Israel Jewish community from the Palestinians. Wikipedia says 6.6% and it's generally very anti-Israel https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_land_purchase_in_Palest... Your mistake is that you assumed incorrectly that Palestinians owned the land. They did not, half of the land was purchased from other owners. > But honestly, even if we take your inflated claim of legal land purchases at 7%, do you honestly think the Palestinian would sell the Jews the remainder of the 93% land if the British and the Palestinian authority had not stop the land purchasing exercises? Again no. You assume Palestinians owned the other 93% of the land which again isn't how territories work. The number is much much lower. Most of the ownership was by public land, churches, mosques, etc. The actual number is open to debate but is indeed in the 40+ percent. Here's the thing: most of it wasn't in the area where Israel was originally formed. Even after 1947, most of the Palestinians were still on their owned land. In fact, they often still are if they didn't run away during the war. I agree it's terrible that people got displaced and lost their land. Hell, it happened to my family dozens of times. It sucks. But I don't expect to go back to Morocco, Lativa, Germany (the list goes on) and ask for the lands back. Its gone. > I cannot recall any incidents where the South Arican black news broadcasting stations, people houses, schools, hospital, house of worships, etc were indiscriminately and systematically decimated from the air by the South African govt at the time. You're again confusing Gaza and the West bank. It seems there's too much information for you to process. Gaza is on its own. That's a war. The west-bank is where I would argue there's a far more severe problem. Unfortunately, the government is using the mess in Gaza to make matters worse in the west-bank. > Do you not know that throughout history for over more than a thousand years never ever have any Muslim authorities totally expelled or decimated the Jewish population. That is far from accurate but the point is true that Christians have been far more murderous towards Jews in history. That's part of why we're paranoid and rightly so. Just to correct the false narrative I suggest looking up: Almohad Caliphate (12th century). Orphans Decree under Zaydi Imams in Yemen (20th century) and Mawza Exile in the 17th century. Allahdad Incident 1839 in Persia and Safavid Era Forced Islamization in the 17th century (and another incident in the 14th century). In Morocco through many centuries and as late as 1790 there was forced conversion. But yes, the Christians were far worse. This is all before the formation of Israel when things got really bad and Jews had to escape. > I'd strongly suggest you read the The Hundred Years' War on Palestine book What makes you think I haven't read that and countless others on the subject? I'm amazed that you're trying to explain my history to me and assume we don't all know this stuff. We live this stuff every day and are exposed to the "other side". I'd argue that you are not, you think of this entire conflict in simplistic two dimensional terms. You overweight facts that have absolutely no relevance to the current situation and mix two completely different situations/narratives. You also look at the situation in the completely wrong way. This isn't about Palestinians vs. Jews/Israelis. It's about moderates vs. extremists. The moderates are a huge majority here and just want peace/compromise. However, extremists keep burning everything down and forcing us into conflict that we don't want. Hamas is a death cult, it will never surrender its purpose to destroy Israel. If it survives it might be able to strike a blow that will give the extreme right in Israel the power to do the unthinkable. The problem is that most westerners are acting as chaos agents by providing unintentional support for Hamas. This strengthens the Israeli right-wing and is ultimately bad for the moderates on both sides, but mostly bad for the Palestinians. Those are the facts that you're conveniently ignoring. |
> Nope. I asked if you would be as judgemental towards any other ethnic group.
The following is your own statement that accusing me of anti-immigrant but you later denying this very fact.
> It seems that you accept hate toward immigrants...
For the record I don't accept hate toward immigrants because if that the case I'd be anti-immigrants and anti-immigration, but I'm against emigration en mass into one particular region especially if the immigrants are mainly from a single race ethnicity as happened and still happening in Israel displacing the native population.
Do you know and realize that despite Palestinian population is very much less than the Israel population, but consistently every year there are more Palestinians were killed by the conflict than the Israel citizens that were killed every year because of the conflict?
In addition to that, despite the the claim of Israel govt of only specifically targeting Hamas fighters, every time there is fresh conflict it always the news agency building are being targetted first in early stage of the conflict, and killing many journalists in the building. Do you not know that killing the journalists and messengers are the hallmark of a tyrant? Apparently Jews are well known of killing many of their very own messengers and prophets including the infamous prophet John incident.
On top of that during most Israel - Palestinian conflicts the majority of the killed casualties (not to include the injured Palestinians) are mostly Palestinian women and children. These cruel and inhuman activities are apartheid in nature and is borderline genocide. That's why in my first reply to you in this thread is that why you're very much adamant in backing the Israel govt in justifying their inhuman actions.
I think you and the the Jewish people in Israel are trying to play victims here. Jewish people throughout history are also known to be the oppressors when they're in authority, and for example one of them is well documented. Reportedly the Jewish king Dhu Nuwas in Yemen was oppressing against the Christians before the advent of Islam, the incident happened near Najran, near the modern Saudi and Yemen border [1]. This story is well documented in Roman/Byzantine chronicles and even recorded in the Quran inside the Surah Al-Buruj [2]. Perhaps your wife can share this true story to you since she's originally from Yemen. My point is that Jews should not acting innocent because history has proven that they are as capable as other people to perform hideous oppression, tyranny and genocide. In fact in the Quran (in addition to Dhu Nuwas incident), the Jewish people was specifically mentioned to be the oppressors of two incidents before being crushed twice by other empires as direct punishments from God [3].
>The moderates are a huge majority here and just want peace/compromise.
As a fellow human being, my personal advice for you is that you should migrate to somewhere else with your family for not being caught in the crossfire. Since you're not religious Jews, I've bad news for you because the trend is that the Israel Jewish population are becoming more and more Orthodox everyday. This fact has been prophesized in reputable (sahih) Islamic traditions and based on the latest documentaries that I watched on Israel, this is also the case.
I'll not continue this thread anymore since I think I've mentioned and conveyed my points on the matter as an outsider. But you as insider of the conflict you know better than me to make the correct and wise decisions regarding the situations. I sincerely hope the best for you and family, as human we only live temporarily in this world and might as well get the best version of it. For religious people, they even have these extra realization and consciousness that if they committed any good or bad things in this world based on their own free will, they'll be rewarded in fairness accordingly both in this world and hereafter.
[1] Dhu Nuwas:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhu_Nuwas
[2] Surah Al-Buruj (85):
https://quran.com/al-buruj
[3] Quran, Surah Al-Isra (17), verses 4 - 8:
https://quran.com/al-isra/4-8
17 - 4: And We warned the Children of Israel in the Scripture, “You will certainly cause corruption in the land twice, and you will become extremely arrogant."
17 - 5: When the first of the two warnings would come to pass, We would send against you some of Our servants of great might, who would ravage your homes. This would be a warning fulfilled.
17 - 6: Then (after your repentance) We would give you the upper hand over them and aid you with wealth and offspring, causing you to outnumber them.
17 - 7: If you act rightly, it is for your own good, but if you do wrong, it is to your own loss. And when the second warning would come to pass, your enemies would (be left to) totally disgrace you and enter that place of worship as they entered it the first time, and utterly destroy whatever would fall into their hands.
17 - 8: Perhaps your Lord will have mercy on you (if you repent), but if you return (to sin), We will return (to punishment). And We have made Hell a (permanent) confinement for the disbelievers.