[ProgramMax]

Author here. Hello everyone! Feel free to ask me anything. I'll go ahead and dispel some doubts I already see here:

- It isn't really a "new format". It's an update to the existing format. - It is very backwards compatible. -- Old programs will load new PNGs to the best of their capability. A user will still know "that is a picture of a red apple".

There also seems to be some confusion about how PNGs work internally. Short and sweet: - There are chunks of data. -- Chunks have a name, which says what data it contains. A program can skip a chunk it doesn't recognize. - There is only one image stream.

[fwip]

Do you have any examples on hand of PNGs that use the new features of the spec? It would be cool to see a little demo page with animated or HDR images, especially to download to test if our programs support them yet.

[ProgramMax]

Sure!

Chris Lilley--one of the original PNG co-authors--has a post with an example HDR image: https://svgees.us/blog/cICP.html It is about half way down, with the birthday cake. Generally, us tech nerds have phones that are capable of displaying it well. So perhaps view the page on your phone.

What you should look for is the cake, the pink tips in her hair, and the background being more vivid. For me, the pink in the cake was the big give-away.

There is also the Web Platform Tests (WPT) which we use to validate browser support: https://wpt.fyi/results/png/cicp-chunk.html?label=master&lab...

Although, that image is just a boring teal. See it live in your browser here: https://wpt.live/png/cicp-chunk.html

For an example of APNG, you can use Wikipedia's images: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/APNG

But you have a bigger point: I should have live demonstrations of those things to help people understand.

[jacekm]

Thank you for the examples. I tried the one with a pink cake. Turns out that on my machine only web browsers are capable of displaying the image properly. All viewers (IrfanView, XnView, Nomacs, Windows Photos) and editors (Paint .NET, GIMP) that I've tried only showed the "washed out" picture.

[ProgramMax]

Yeah. We were able to get buy-in from some big players. We cannot contact every group, though. My hope is since big players have bought in, others will hear the message and update their programs.

Sooooo file some bugs :D

Also, be kind to them. This literally launched yesterday.

[dave8088]

The creator of photopea.com is very responsive to user suggestions. I’d recommend contacting him if you haven’t already.

[sedatk]

It's interesting that Paint.NET supports the vivid image if you screenshot the cake (Win+Shift+S) and paste it. But, opening the PNG opens up the washed out picture.

[account42]

Huh, for some reason GIMP doesn't even show the usual color space conversion dialog.

[jcynix]

> But you have a bigger point: I should have live demonstrations of those things to help people understand.

Pink can pose problems for individuals with red-green color blindness (or more exactly: color vision deficiency). So make sure that examples work for these people too. Otherwise the examples might not work for about 8% of your male viewers.

[Nopoint2]

I never realized how limited sRGB is. I guess this is why people liked CRT TVs, and why you could never watch analog TV properly on a PC screen.

[account42]

It's really not that limited, the problem is only if you reinterpret a larger gamut as sRGB without doing the proper conversion where things look washed out.

[Nopoint2]

That's what I thought too, but the difference is big. You'd think you maybe lose some color lights, or very bright flowers, but no, colors outside sRGB are common.

There was nothing you could do about the TV, the screen couldn't show all the colors that you needed.

[cratermoon]

I can see a clear difference between the images in Firefox on MacOS with my M1 macbook. Very nice.

[fwip]

Thanks, I appreciate all of these links. :)

[dave8088]

You’re awesome. Thanks for making things better.

[account42]

> It isn't really a "new format". It's an update to the existing format. - It is very backwards compatible. -- Old programs will load new PNGs to the best of their capability. A user will still know "that is a picture of a red apple".

This is great but also has the issue that users might not notice that their setup is giving them a less than optimal result. Of course that is probably still better than not having backwards compatibility.

Edit: Seems the backwards compatibility isn't as great as it could be. Old programs show a washed out image instead which sucks. This should have been avoidable in the same way JPG gain maps work so that you only need updated programs to take advantage of the increased gamut on more-than-sRGB screens and not to correctly show colors that fit into sRGB.

[ProgramMax]

PNG Fourth Edition, which we are working on now, is likely to add gain maps.

However, gain maps are extra data. So there is a trade off.

The reason gain maps didn't make it into Third Edition is it isn't yet a formal standard. We have a bunch of the work ready to go once their standard launches.

[Nanopolygon]

If you are really going to do something new, I recommend that you proceed through a work that is very good at this. For example, HALIC(High Availability Lossless Image Compression). It is both extremely fast and has a very good compression ratio, and memory usage is very very low. There is also very strong Multithread support already. I think something like this would be great for the new PNG. Of course, we don't know what the author of HALIC thinks about this.

[nabla9]

Does it have any advantage over Lossless encoding in JPEG XL?

[ProgramMax]

Yes, lots.

The big one is adoption. I love JPEG XL and hope it becomes more widely adopted. It is very scary to add a format to a browser because you can never remove it. Photoshop and MSPaint no longer support ICO files, but browsers do. So it makes sense for browsers to add support last, after it is clearly universal. I think JPEG XL is well on their way using this approach. But they aren't there yet and PNG is.

There is also longevity and staying power. I can grab an ancient version of Photoshop off eBay and it'll support PNG. This also benefits archivists.

As a quick side note on that: I want people to think about their storage and bandwidth. Have they ever hit storage/bandwidth limits? If so, were PNGs the cause? Was their site slow to load because of PNGs? I think we battle on file size as an old habit from the '90s image compression wars. Back then, we wanted pixels on the screen quickly. The slow image loads were noticeable on dial-up. So file size was actually important then. But today?? We're being penny-wise and pound-foolish.

[LinAGKar]

>we'll be researching compression updates for PNG Fifth Edition.

What sort of improvements might we expect? Is there a chance of it rivalling lossless WebP and JPEG XL?

[ProgramMax]

Our first goal is to see what we can get for "free" right now. Most of the time, people save a PNG which is pretty far from optimally compressed. Then they compare that to another format which is closer to optimal and draw a poor comparison.

You can see this with PNG optimizers like OptiPNG and pngcrush.

So step 1 is to improve libpng. This requires no spec change.

Step 2 is to enable parallel encoding and decoding. We expect this to increase the file size, but aren't sure how much. It might be surprisingly small (a few hundred bytes?). It will be optional.

Step 3 is the major changes like zstd. This would prevent a new PNG from being viewable in old software, so there is a considerably higher bar for adoption. If we find step 1 got us within 1% of zstd, it might not be worth such a major change.

I don't yet know what results we'll find or if all the work will be done in time. So please don't take this as promises or something to expect. I'm just being open and honest about our intentions and goals.

[Nanopolygon]

Solutions such as OptiPNG and Pngcrush require extra processing power on top of the already slow PNG. But in most cases they are still behind.

[derefr]

So, I'm a big fan of metaformats with generalized tooling support. Think of e.g. Office Open XML or ePub — you don't need "an OOXML parser" / "an ePub parser" to parse these; they're both just zipped XML, so you just need a zipfile library and libxml.

For the lifetime of PNG so far, a PNG file has almost, but just barely not, been a valid Interchange File Format (IFF) file.

IFF is a great (simple to understand, simple to implement support for, easy to generate, easy to decode, memory-efficient, IO-efficient, relatively compact, highly compressible) metaformat, that more people should be aware of.

However, up to this point, the usage of IFF has consisted of:

• some old proprietary game-data and image formats from the 1980s that no modern person has heard of

• some popular-yet-proprietary AV formats [AIFF, RIFF] that nobody would write a decoder for by hand anyway (because they would need a DSP library to handle the resulting sample-stream data anyway, and that library may as well offer container-format support too)

• The object files of an open but uncommon language runtime (Erlang .beam files), where that runtime exposes only high-level domain-specific parsing tooling (`beam_lib`) rather than IFF-general decoding tooling

• An "open-source but corporate-steered" image format that people are wary of allowing to gain ecosystem traction (WebP — which is more-specifically a document in a RIFF container)

• And PNG... but non-conformantly, such that any generic IFF decoder that could decode the other things above, would choke on a PNG file.

IMHO, this is a major reason that there is no such thing as "generalized IFF tooling" today, despite the IFF metaformat having all the attributes required to make it the "JSON of the binary world". (Don't tell me about CBOR; ain't nobody hand-rolling a CBOR encoder out of template strings.)

If you can't guess by now, my wishlist item for PNGv3, is for PNG files to somehow become valid/conformant IFF files — such that the popularity of PNG could then serve as the bootstrap for a real IFF tooling ecosystem, and encourage awareness/use of IFF in new greenfield format-definition use-cases.

---

Now, I've written PNG parsers, and generic IFF parsers too. I've even tried this exact unification trick before (I wanted an Erlang library that could parse both .beam files and PNG files. $10 if you can guess the use-case for that!)

Because of this, I know that "making PNG valid per IFF" isn't really possible by modifying the PNG format, while ensuring that the resulting format is decodable by existing PNG decoders. If you want all the old [esp. hardware] PNG parsers to be compatible with PNGv3s, then y'all can't exactly do anything in PNGv3 like "move the 4-byte CRC inside the chunk as measured by the 4-byte chunk length" or "make the CRCs into their own chunks that reference the preceding record".

But I'm not proposing that. I'm actually proposing the opposite.

Much of what PNGv2 did in contravention of the IFF spec, is honestly a pretty good idea in general. It's all stuff that could be "upstreamed" — from the PNG level, to the IFF level.

I propose: formalizing "the variant of IFF used in PNG" as its own separate metaformat specification — breaking this metaformat out from the PNG spec itself into its own standards document.

This would then be the "Interchange File Format specification, version 2.0" (not that there was ever a formal IFFv1 spec; we all just kind of looked at what EA/Commodore had done, and copied it in our own code since it was so braindead-easy to implement.)

This IFF 2.0 spec would formalize, at least, a version or "profile" of IFF for which PNGv2 images are conformant files. It would have chunk CRCs; chunk attribute bits encoded for purposes of decoders + editors via meaningful chunk-name letter-casing; and an allowance for some number of garbage bytes before the first valid chunk begins (for PNG's leading file signature that is not itself a valid IFF chunk.)

This could be as far as the IFF 2.0 spec goes — leaving IFFv1 files non-decodable in IFFv2 parsers. But that'd be a shame.

I would suggest going further — formalizing a second IFFv2 "profile" against which IFFv1 documents (like AIFF or RIFF files) are conformant; and then specifying that "generic" IFFv2-conformant decoders (i.e. a hypothetical "libiff", not a format-specific libpng) MUST implement support for decoding both the IFFv1-conforming and the PNGv2-conforming profiles of IFF.

It could then be up to the IFF-decoding-tooling user (CLI command user, library caller) to determine which IFFv2 "profile" to apply to a given document... or the IFFv2 spec could also specify some heuristic algorithm for input-document "profile" detection. (I think it'd be pretty easy; find a single chunk, and if what follows its chunk-length is a CRC that validates that chunk, then you have the PNGv2-like profile. Whereas if it's not that, but is instead four bytes of chunk-name-valid character ranges, then you've got the IFFv1-like profile. [And if it's neither, then you've got a file with a corrupted first chunk.])

---

And, if you want to go really far, you could then specify a third entirely-novel "profile", for use in greenfield IFF applications:

• A few bytes of space aren't so precious; we can hash things much faster these days, with hardware-accelerated hashing instructions; and those instructions are also for hashes that do much better than CRC to ensure integriaty. So either replace the inline CRCs with CRC chunks, or with nested FORM-like container records (WCRC [len] [CRC4] [interior chunk]). Or just skip per-chunk CRCs and formalize a fHsh chunk for document-level integrity, embedding the output of an arbitrary hash algorithm specified by its registered https://github.com/multiformats/multihash "hash function code".

• Re-widen the chunk-name-valid character set to those valid in IFFv1 documents, to ensure those can be losslessly re-encoded into this profile. To allow chunks with non-letter characters to have a valid attribute decoding, specify a document-level per-chunk-name "attributes of all chunks of this type" chunk, that can either be included into a given concrete format's header-chunk specification, or allowed at various points in the chunk stream per a concrete format's encoding rules (where it would then be expected to apply to any successor + successor-descendant chunks within its containing chunk's "scope.") Note that the goal here is to keep the attribute bits in some way or another — they're very useful IMHO, and I would expect an IFF decoder lib to always be emitting these boolean chunk-attribute fields as part of each decoded chunk.

• Formalize the magic signature at the beginning into a valid chunk, that somehow encodes 1. that this is an IFF 2.0 "greenfield profile" document (bytes 0-3); 2. what the concrete format in use is (bytes 4-7). (You could just copy/generalize what RIFF does here [where a RIFF chunk has the semantics of a LIST chunk but with a leading 4-byte chunk-name type], such that the whole document is enclosed by a root chunk — though this is painful in that you need to buffer the entire document if you're going to calculate the root-chunk length.)

I'm just spitballing; the concrete details of such a greenfield profile don't matter here, just the design goal — having a profile into which both IFFv1 and PNGv2 documents could be losslessly transcoded. Ideally with as minimal change to the "wider and weirder/more brittle ecosystem" side [in this case that's IFFv1] as possible. (Compare/contrast: how HTML5 documents are a profile of HTML that supersedes both HTML4 and XHTML1.1 — supporting both unclosed tags and XML-namespaced element names — allowing HTML4 documents to parse "as" HTML5 without rewrites, and XHTML1.1 documents to be transcoded to HTML5 by just stripping some root-level xmlns declarations and changing the doctype.)

[ProgramMax]

Strangely, I was familiar with AIFF and RIFF files but never made the connection that they're both IFF. I hadn't known about IFF before your post. Thank you :)

W3C requires that we do not break old, conformant specs. Meaning if the next PNG spec would invalidate prior specs, they won't approve it. By extension, an old, conformant program will not suddenly become non-conformant.

I could see a group of people formalizing IFFv2, and adapting PNG to it. But that would effectively be PNGIFF, not PNG. It would be a new spec. Because we cannot break the old one.

That might be fine. But it comes with a new set of problems, like adoption.

Soooo I like the idea but it would probably be a separate thing. FWIW, it would actually be nice to make a formal IFF spec. If there was no governing body that owns it, we can find an org and gather interest.

I doubt W3C would be the right org for it. ISO subgroup??

[saintfire]

They pretty much say the same thing halfway through. Don't change PNG but adapt IFF to work with PNG's flavour of IFF.

[ProgramMax]

Right. Sorry, that was supposed to be a "yes, and..." to provide some additional context.

[account42]

We really shouldn't be making new standards with big endian byte order.

It's also questionable how much you actually benefit from common container formats like this since you need to know the application specific format contained anyway in order to do anything useful with it. It also causes problems where "smart" programs treat files in ways that make no sense, e.g. by offering to extract a .docx file just because it looks like a .zip

[derefr]

> you need to know the application specific format contained anyway in order to do anything useful with it

One neat thing about IFF is that all of its "container" chunk types (LIST, FORM, CAT) are part of the standard; the expectation is that domain-specific chunk types should [mostly] be leaf nodes. As such, IFF is at least "legible" in the same way that XML or JSON or Lisp is legible (and more than e.g. ELF is legible): you're meant to decompose an object graph into individual IFF chunks for each object in the graph. Which translates to IFF files being "browseable", rather than dead-ending in opaque tables that require some other standard to tell how how they're even row-delimited.

Another neat thing is that, like with namespaced XML element names, chunk names — at least the "public" ones — are meant to have globally-unique meanings, being registered in a global registry (https://wiki.amigaos.net/wiki/IFF_FORM_and_Chunk_Registry). This means that IFF tooling can "browse" an arbitrary unknown IFF document, find a chunk it does understand the meaning of, and usefully decode it (and maybe its descendants) for you.

Many more-complex IFF formats (e.g. the AV containers like RIFF) embed data of other media types as chunks of these registered types. Think "thumbnail in a video file" or "texture in a scene file." Your tooling doesn't need to know the semantics of the outer format, to be able to discover these registered inner chunks inside it, and browse/preview/extract them. (Or replace them one-for-one with another asset of the same type; or even, if they're inside a simple LIST chunk, add or remove instances of the asset from the list!)

Also, somewhat interestingly, given the way IFF is structured, there is no inherent difference between embedding a sub-resource "opaquely" vs embedding it "legibly" — i.e. if you embed a [headerless] IFF document as the value of a chunk in another IFF document, then that's exactly the same thing as nesting the root-level chunk(s) of that sub-document within the parent chunk. It's like how an SVG sub-document inside an XHTML document isn't a separate serialized blob that gets sucked out and parsed, but rather just additional tags in the XHTML document-string, around which a boundary of "this is a separate XML sub-document" gets drawn by some "DOM document builder" code downstream of the actual XML parser.

---

But besides the technical "it can be done" points, let me also speak more in terms of the motivation. Why would you want to?

Well, have you ever wanted to open up a complex file and pull its atomic-level assets out? Your first thought when hearing that was probably "that sounds like a nightmare" — and yes, today, it is.

But back in the 1980s, with the original growth of IFF-based formats, we temporarily lived in this wonderland where there were all these different browseable / explorable file formats, that could be cracked open with exactly the same tools.

Do you wonder how and why the game modding scene first came into existence? It was basically the result of games storing their asset packs in these simple-to-parse/generate file formats — where people could easily drop-in replace one of those assets with a new one with simple command-line tools, or even with a GUI, without worrying about matching asset sizes / binary offset patching / etc — let alone with any knowledge of how the container file format works.

Do you appreciate how macOS app bundles just have a browseable, hierarchical Resources directory inside them? Before app bundles, macOS applications held their resources in a "resource fork" — essentially a set of FourCC-tagged file extended-attributes (though actually, a single on-disk packfile that acted as a random-access key-value store of those xattrs). And both of these approaches (bundle Resources dirs, and resource forks) provided the same explorability / moddability as IFF files do. People would throw a macOS program into ResEdit and pull out its icons, its fonts, its strings, whatever — where those weren't program-domain-specific things, but rather were effectively items with standardized media types (their FourCC codes being effectively the predecessor of modern MIME types.)

For that matter, consider this quote from the IFF wiki page:

> There are standard chunks that could be present in any IFF file, such as AUTH (containing text with information about author of the file), ANNO (containing text with annotation, usually name of the program that created the file), NAME (containing text with name of the work in the file), VERS (containing file version), (c) (containing text with copyright information).

Now, remember that IFF decoders are almost always expected / coded to ignore chunks they don't understand. (Especially for IFF files encoded as a toplevel stream of heterogeneous chunk types.)

That means that not only can various format authors decide to use these standard chunks... but third-party editors can also just drop chunks like this into the things they edit! You know how Windows has that "name, author, version" etc info on the Properties sheet for some file types? That info could show up and be editable for any IFF-based file format — whether the particular format has an "allowance" for it or not.

(There's nothing special about IFF here, by the way. You could just as well drop "foreign-namespaced attributes" like this into an e.g. XML-based document format. The difference is a cultural one: the developers of XML-based document formats tend to have their XML decoders validate their documents for strict conformance to an XML schema; and XML schemas tend to be [but don't have to be!] designed as whitelists of the possible tags that can be used within any given parent nesting path. IFF, meanwhile, has never had anything like a schema-based document validation. Every document was best-effort parsed, like HTML4; and so every IFF-based format decoder is a best-effort decoder, like a web browser parsing HTML4. That very lack of schema-based validation, actually opens up a lot of use-cases for IFF.)

[derefr]

(Separate reply for space)

> We really shouldn't be making new standards with big endian byte order.

IFF isn't a wire protocol standard for efficient zero-copy; and nor is it intended for file formats amenable to being streaming-parsed.

And that's okay! Not every format needs to be suited to efficient, scalable, concurrent, [other lovely words] message passing!

IFF has two major use-cases:

1. documents that are "loaded" in some program, where "loading" is expected to occur against a random-access block device; where each chunk will be visited in turn, with either its contents being parsed into an in-memory representation; its contents' slicing bounds being stored to later stream or random-access within (or the part of the file within those bounds being mmap(2)ed — same thing); or that chunk discarded, thus allowing the load operation to skip issuing any read ops for it or its descendants entirely.

This is the PNG use-case.

(Though, interestingly enough, since PNG has only one large chunk — the image data — PNG can be made into an "effectively-streamed format" simply by keeping that big chunk at the end of the IFF document. Presuming the stream length of the PNG file is known [as in a regular HTTP fetch], the "skeleton load" process for PNG can terminate after just having parsed its way through all the other tiny chunks — perhaps with a few minimal buffer waits to skip over unknown chunks — but with no need to buffer the entire image data chunk. [It adds the image-data-chunk length to the file pointer, realizes there's no more room for chunks in the stream, and so doesn't bother to buffer+seek past that final chunk.] The IFF parser then returns to the caller, passing it the slicing bounds of [among other things] the (still not-yet-fully-received) image-data chunk. And the caller can then turn around, and hand the same FILE pointer and those slicing bounds to its streaming renderer, letting it go to town consuming the stream as needed.)

IFF in its skeleton-loading model, would also be ideal for something like e.g. a font file (which has lots of little tables, which are either eagerly parsed, or ignored, by any given renderer.)

2. simple "read-rarely" packfile documents, that act sort of like little databases, but without any sort of TOC header part; where, when you want to grab something from the packfile, you re-navigate down through it from the root, taking the IOPS hit from all the seeks to each nesting-parent chunk's preceeding sibling chunks before hitting the descendant you want to navigate into.

This is the use-case of most IFFv1 file formats — most of them were made for use by programs that would grab this or that for the program's use either once at startup, or when the thing became relevant. (Think of the types of things a Windows executable embeds as "resources" — icons, translated strings, XAML declarative-MVC-view documents, etc.)

For a parallel, IFF here is to "using an entire archive-format library like tar or zip to store these assets for random access", as "spitting CSV/XML out using template strings" is to using a library to encode a table to a Parquet/ORC/etc. table.

The parallel is that in both cases, you're trading some performance and robustness, for massively reduced complexity and ease of implementation. Like with emitting CSV, you can slop together an IFF encoder right there inside your data-emitting logic — in any language that can write out binary files, and without even having access to the Internet, let alone adding a dependency on an encoder package in some package ecosystem. You can do it in C; you can do it in assembly; you can do it in a bash script; you can do it in BASIC; you can do it in a Windows batch file; you can do it in your single-file Python or Ruby or Perl script that lives in your repo. You can probably do it in a Makefile!

(Also, given how IFF parsing works [i.e. given that any given chunk's contents is in superposition of being either an opaque binary slice or a potential stream of child chunks, with a streaming event-based parser able to decide at each juncture whether to take that step of decoding the child chunks or to leave them as an undecoded binary for now], if you start to care about performance, you can just stick some memoization in front of your "fetch a key-path-lens KP from document D" function, and now you're building a just-in-time TOC. And obviously you can put TOC chunks in your IFF-based file formats if you want — though IMHO doing so kind of goes against the spirit of IFF.)

---

In neither of those use-cases does it really matter that lengths require reading four bytes one-at-a-time with left-shifts, rather than being able to just plop the four bytes into a register. These aren't cases where the parse overhead of the the structural glue between the data, will ever be non-trivial relative to the time it takes to consume the data itself.

And even if you did want to use IFF for something crazy, like as a substitute for Protobuf: did you know that most modern CPU ISAs have a byte-shuffle instruction that can transform big-endian into little-endian [among an unbounded number of other potential transformations] in a single cycle? Endian-ness did matter in protocol design for a while... but these days, unless you're e.g. a Google engineer designing a new SAN protocol, and optimizing it for message-handling overhead on your custom SDN L7 network-switch silicon that doesn't have a shuffle op... endian-ness is mostly irrelevant again!

[80x86]

It would be nice if PNG supported no compression. That is handy in many situations.