[haswell]

> you aren't a winner if you are unlocking social media. You are opening the gate to loserdom

That is not a psychologically healthy way to frame this.

And I think it’s a stretch to say that screaming “I’m a loser” is positive punishment, which seems just as likely to reinforce negative self beliefs that lead to the outcomes described in the parent comment’s research and opposite of what the user presumably wants.

To your point, just flipping this around to “I’m a winner” doesn’t seem quite right either. But more importantly, reinforcing the idea that “I’m a loser” seems counterproductive either way.

[janalsncm]

> And I think it’s a stretch to say that screaming “I’m a loser” is positive punishment

A positive punishment is giving the subject something they don’t like. For example corporeal punishment.

A negative punishment is taking away something the subject does like. For example food.

Importantly punishments need to happen after the unwanted behavior. So being punished before the behavior occurs doesn’t make any sense.

[haswell]

> Importantly punishments need to happen after the unwanted behavior. So being punished before the behavior occurs doesn’t make any sense.

Also importantly, punishment as a mechanism for changing behavior is generally considered less effective than reinforcement approaches, which tend to be more effective and carry fewer downsides (like internalizing the idea that I'm a loser).

[nemomarx]

Positive in the conditioning sense just means "something you have to do" where a negative punishment would be something being removed. It doesn't specify if the outcome is bad or good

[haswell]

Fair. I was conflating this with positive reinforcement, and the nuance of the terminology got a bit mixed up.

To your last point, I think the conclusion remains similar. Even if yelling “I’m a loser” qualifies as “something you have to do”, it seems unlikely to be an effective “punishment” in that framework for the reasons explored above.

[asdf6969]

> That is not a psychologically healthy way to frame this.

But lying to yourself is so much worse. Eventually you won’t hold the illusion anymore and you’ll crash hard. It’s better to be honest and grounded in reality if you want any improvement to be sustainable

[doublerabbit]

Just because surveys say X = Y it doesn't necessary mean it has to apply to everyone's mindset.

[haswell]

In practice, I have never encountered a person who benefits from such negative self beliefs in the long term, or anyone who would claim they were beneficial. My perspective on this is driven by many years of real world experience with addiction and related communities, and more personal exploration of the negative bias than I can quantify.

There’s a good reason addiction recovery is now often focused on the underlying issues of shame and other negative self beliefs. They tend to be at the root of the issue, despite being the default reaction people feel towards themselves due to social conditioning.

[doublerabbit]

Your not wrong, I do agree. But for a pet-project, it's a bit of fun? Or should we just face it.

Everyone is a loser for using social media?

[haswell]

This just doesn’t land for me.

Quite a bit of social media use happens for perfectly good reasons. Organizing local events, finding and attending local events, meeting people in other regions who care about a common cause, etc.

What tends to distress people is that social media is also a toxic hellscape that simultaneously stresses them out and addicts them by playing on their evolutionary instincts and needs for social connection while feeding them engagement bait.

And so unplugging is a common topic these days, because people are trying to live better lives.

I get that it’s a pet project, but if this pet project was aimed at alcoholics trying to get sober, I think people would look at it in a different light because people take alcoholism seriously, and reinforcing negative loops that actually perpetuate alcoholism would be justifiably criticized.

I personally don’t think we’re taking social media harms seriously enough collectively, although there are signs that people are catching up. So while I think this project comes from the right place and I’m all for having a bit of fun, I think it’s actually quite problematic in its current state given the issue it attempts to address, and I don’t think the fact that it’s intended to be fun should shield it from the feedback it’s getting.

> Or should we just face it.

The sentence following this is just objectively false to a degree that I don’t even see the humor in it. It’s schoolyard stuff that perpetuates the problem.

[doublerabbit]

I use none of Social Media other than HN, which could be classified as such.

I know and see the damage upon. We've let social media control us.

[haswell]

> We've let social media control us.

For most people, social media is something that happened to them, and the nature of the relationship is asymmetrical.

The companies building these products spend millions weaponizing their apps to take advantage of human psychology, while social forces have made these apps ubiquitous and part of the fabric of many people’s lives.

I don’t think it’s fair to say people “let” social media control them any more than it’s fair to say someone predisposed to alcoholism “lets” alcohol control them.

This isn’t to say we don’t need to each take steps to improve our situations or unplug from social media, but I’m pointing this out because of how it relates to your earlier diagnosis that “Everyone who uses social media is a loser”, which points the finger in the wrong direction and frames the issue as a personal problem vs. a growing systemic social issue.

[latexr]

Of course not everyone. That goes without saying, everyone is different and you’ll always find someone who is an exception. But when you build something for other people to use, it is useful to understand what is the most common mindset for your audience.

[latexr]

> To your point, just flipping this around to “I’m a winner” doesn’t seem quite right either. But more importantly, reinforcing the idea that “I’m a loser” seems counterproductive either way.

Maybe the solution would be to have to shout something embarrassing but not deprecating towards your own self-worth. Like “I eat spaghetti through my nose” or “my poop comes out really soft”. You’d certainly avoid using social media in public.

[haswell]

I think the issue is more broad though.

While a “punishment” that involves calling oneself a loser is a problem, the entire approach of punishment-based learning has given way to reinforcement approaches because they tend to be more effective in the long term without the negative effects of punishment-based approaches.

To put this another way, using punishment to stop using social media is probably not a good approach either way. Yelling “I’m a loser” is just one of the worst variants of this specific approach.