[mikesabat]

If you want to make a kids app... Forcing the child to do a number of math problems to continue using the tablet would be an amazing app that I would definitely pay for.

My daughter is a second grader. If every 5 minutes of tablet use 'cost' her 5 correct arithmetic answers she would be working at space x right now.

[graemep]

It would work short term, but I would worry that it makes a a price to be paid which will impair joy in learning the subject in the long term.

Its much better to make kids interested in learning than to reward reaching goals or punish failing to reach them.

[serial_dev]

On the other hand, the kids might do lot of exercises to keep playing, then they get better at something, then they realize that it is much more enjoyable to be good at something than not...

Long term, it could still be a win.

Obviously not the same, but in the first years of university, I hated math because it suddenly got hard (never before university did I have to learn math or physics just to barely pass). Then, after many nights of reading through books and practicing, grinding, I realized it's not that hard and it made me enjoy solving the "challenges".

[JadeNB]

> Then, after many nights of reading through books and practicing, grinding, I realized it's not that hard and it made me enjoy solving the "challenges".

The only thing I'd change from this wonderful comment is that it is that hard! It's just that, like any other hard skill, lots of dedicated study and practice makes it easier to do hard things.

[serial_dev]

Sure!

What I mean is that before that, I just thought it’s simply too hard for me and the others are smarter or they come from better school. Then, after going through practically 3-5 books for each topic, practically “drilling” exercises, I finally understood why the others “just get it”. It was hard to get myself to sit down, focus, work, practice… but once I worked on a topic for long enough and got better, I realized it’s not magic, I don’t need special talents, and I can just sit down and study most things.

Then, the classes and exams didn’t give me anxiety anymore, I started to enjoy them, treat exams as challenges rather then the step before receiving another failed exam notification…

I studied Physics but switched to software engineering and this experience helped me add another tool to my toolbelt when something gets difficult.

Some perseverance, some time, and we can learn many things. And as you get better, you start to enjoy things.

[BrandoElFollito]

I have a PhD in physics and maths always were hard. I ended up having a toolbox to solve my common problems.

This is still useful after having left academia, I often look at something and the right "tool" pops up from the toolbox. It helos to understand the world around us and realize how much bullshit we are fed through doctored graphs or tables.

[nh23423fefe]

Is it much better if its not possible? You just handwaved away the work involve by assuming you can create "interest". You shifted the goal post away from using arithmetic as a tax on idle iPad use toward "learning."

What about chores? How should I make my children interested in chores outside of a reward or punishment?

[graemep]

> Is it much better if its not possible

it is usually possible IMO

What is the per se benefit of the "tax" if not to encourage learning.?

> How should I make my children interested in chores outside of a reward or punishment?

Instill a sense of duty and obligation. Set an example. Children do understand quite young that things need to be done, and they like to help parents.

[nh23423fefe]

> What is the per se benefit of the "tax" if not to encourage learning.

The tax exists to offset drag of idle ipad time. The tax could be chores, or reading, or arithmetic, or outside play. It doesn't matter.

I'm not a perfect person to be emulated. I want to offset their desire for hedonic maximization not demand the live up to some standard I can't accomplish. I'm on my phone all day.

[bitwize]

Math is a grind. Inherently. You gotta drill the basic arithmetic in order to learn it, and no amount of sugarcoating will make kids like it. So incentivizing kids to commit to the grind will beat attempting to make the subject more interesting, every time. This is the lesson unlearned by proponents of "New Math" and "Common Core" in the USA; in fact, maybe one of the reasons why Singapore Math is so successful is because Singaporeans, like many Asians, learn the value of discipline from an early age.

[avoutos]

As someone who grew up during the heyday of common core, I can attest to this. Standardization is not a bad thing, but the pace and complexity were dumbed down. We were taught arithmatic with block visualisations and "bundles" far too long as if it took great effort to understand the abstraction of arabic numerals. I constantly felt like my desire and aptitude to learn outpaced the learning materials supplied and I have never considered myself "gifted" with math.

I think many will be surprised by the amount children can learn if you actually test the limit of their capabilities.

I feel the limiting factor when it comes to learning increasingly difficult concepts is not intelligence but effort. Often teachers and parents may mistake the attention-span deficits of kids for a sign that the material is too hard, when the ability is there and only needs to be distilled with discipline.

[graemep]

> You gotta drill the basic arithmetic in order to learn it

Do less arithmetic. We have calculators so arithmetic matters less.

> no amount of sugarcoating will make kids like it.

Sugarcoating is exactly the wrong approach. Its making the subject itself enjoyable.

https://profkeithdevlin.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/09/lockh...

> This is the lesson unlearned by proponents of "New Math" and "Common Core" in the USA

Not familiar with those, but I the "its fun" approach has worked for me.

[ThrowawayR2]

"We have calculators so arithmetic matters less" you say?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third-pound_burger#Marketing_f...

"The results revealed that many participants mistakenly believed that one-third of a pound was smaller than one-fourth (quarter) of a pound. Focus group participants expressed confusion over the price, asking why they should pay the same amount for a "smaller" third-pound burger."

[ryandrake]

I always thought that fast food companies should have used that research to take advantage of the public’s innumeracy and offer a “1/5 pound” burger next to their 1/4 pound burgers, and charge more for it.

[graemep]

I agree with that, but most of those people probably can do arithmetic and were drilled in it at school, but drill to get the right answers does not teach you how to apply it.

[SoftTalker]

> We have calculators so arithmetic matters less.

Disagee. Fluency in basic arithmetic is a very useful life skill.

[graemep]

Some things are. Being able to estimate rough answers in your head is far more useful than being able to do an exact answer with pen and paper.

[lazystar]

> Do less arithmetic. We have calculators so arithmetic matters less.

would you also posit that, since we have AI auto gen tools, we no longer need to teach spelling/grammar to children?

[graemep]

Very different skills.

I would not teach spelling by drill and memorisation either - you pick it up if you read.

[hobs]

It matters less, but the lack of numeracy means many people are befuddled by the most basic math related conversations, statistical conversations (polling), fraction or rate based (APR? Taxes???) things - all over the place.

Learning the basics and drilling them is a useful skill even if you can make the machine do it for you.

[graemep]

But most of those people befuddled by these things were drilled in it, but do not know how to apply it. Drill without understanding.

[debunn]

Might I suggest https://www.prodigygame.com - it's a free-to-play online math game, where your child is a wizard that has to answer (age appropriate) math questions to gain magic to cast spells. Note: there is a paid subscription that allows your child to get access to more pets / faster experience gain, but is not required.

While this isn't a "do math to be able to unlock your device" type of game, it is fun to play and can be used as an earned screen-time requirement (or a "free screen-time" option!)

Disclaimer: I work for Prodigy as a Site Reliability Engineer, but my son (10) also enjoys playing the game!

[quantadev]

It certainly seems like someone would've invented a Kid Friendly phone by now that's completely safe, and doesn't allow access to the "real" internet at all, but only an ability to send texts without images, make voice calls, etc. Now that we have AI it would be easier, an you could potentially give "Google" access that's censored into a "child friendly" output by the AI. You could have a texting app where friends can talk, but only to kids in their own school for example, or at least limited by geographical area, to foster friendships IRL, rather than some Chinese Bot being able to trick your kid into eating Tide Pods or whatever their latest Attack on America happens to be.

But TBH making kids continually solve math problems seems a bit mean to me. Like making a kid do pushups for food if they're overweight. Too militaristic and authoritarian for my liking, but I can respect your creativity for creating that. It's good to try new ideas.

[akho]

“Child friendly output” is not a solution. It is the problem. I trust my 9-yo to avoid porn or violence; I don’t trust him to be able to resist the hours of inane content on YouTube Kids &c. Using AI to facilitate access to more of that, while censoring reality, is the opposite of what’s needed.

[quantadev]

> I trust my 9-yo

Welp, there's your first mistake.

[graemep]

So make a phone without all the things that make it so profitable? Limit what they can be sold? You would have to sell it at a premium for less functionality.

There are ways of locking down phones and apps, I think. I am pretty sure there are apps that will do most of what you want, but they do not have critical mass.

I did set up a Jitsi server for my daughter and her friends at one point when another parent was not keen on allowing kids access to chat and video apps.

You can give kids a basic phone instead of a smartphone.

[quantadev]

Right, I didn't mean it necessarily had to be on it's own hardware. I don't have any Android development experience, but it seems like android could have a version that's as locked down a this.

If I had kids I wouldn't even allow use of a smartphone. I think hardly any BigTech execs let their own kids use these dumpster fires called smartphones and social media. They know there's almost zero benefits to it. Just leads to brain damage, laziness, ADHD, psychological disorders like depression, life-threatening risk-taking, and even su*cicd.

[graemep]

Depends on age, individual, usage and circumstances. My kids had phones as teens, and they were useful to some extent. It also depends what they do - social media + doomscrolling is the worst thing.

There is Android support for locking things down for kids, but I do not know how effective it is - mine are adults of close to being an adult now.

Its also hard to do without. I would have to pay a lot more for my daughter's bus tickets to get to school if she did not use the bus company app (because that would mean daily tickets instead of monthly which are a lot cheaper). Its where a lot of kids not only discuss things and social, but organise things (although I encourage doing that at a desktop rather than a phone when possible) so kids without get left out.

[quantadev]

I agree with all that. Nowadays kids are so addicted to phones, the phone is like a toy (even like a baby pacifier) that they simply never outgrow even into adulthood. They can't sit at a stoplight without needing a "fix" like a junkie. It's so sad.

[graemep]

I somewhat agree, and it is very harmful, but adults who did not have phones as kids can be just as bad. I have even seen someone posting on social media (with a photo of what was happening) to complain about a child not putting their device down!

It is not just sad, it is harmful. "What is life if full of care, we have no time to stand and stare". It is the opposite of mindfulness.

[dylan604]

I'd rather solve math problems than CAPTCHAs any day of the week.

[quantadev]

But would you make your kid do CAPTCHAs every time they need to earn some privilege? We're talking about what's appropriate for kids, not what's easy or hard for adults or kids. I mean why not make them earn dessert by doing push-ups? Because it's mean, that's why.

[dylan604]

If it was up to me, I'd make them do 5 push ups and 5 crunches instead. Or putting the devices down altogether. It's not mean to make your kids do physical activity. In fact, if you are not making them do physical activity, I'd say you are negligent as a parent. I guarantee you that if you had your kids start doing pushups and crunches they would get to the point of it being a nothing burger to do it. It will be a bunch of moaning and complaining at the start, but that goes away. It's just as much of a conditioning as the kid crying and being rewarded with a device.

[quantadev]

If you wanna have successful kids just make 'em solve a coding challenge on a white board for food and/or medical and dental care, whereby noncompliance or failure earns them a night out in the tent in the back yard, especially in winter. You wanna be a disciplinarian, then let's get it right, amirite?

[dylan604]

no, now you're just being obstinate because you think it's cool on the internet or something. if you think doing 5 push ups and 5 crunches is punishment, then we're just on different planets. fine, if you're so against physical exercise. then make the ankle biters clean their room, take out the trash, walk the dog (oops physical exercise again), or any of a number of other things. unless you're one of those parents who thinks chores are too taxing for their sweetwiddleones

[MagnumOpus]

The Anton app[0] does that to a decent extent. The kids have to earn "coins" by solving math/English/other school tasks, and can spend these coins on a huge variety of mini games.

For use on a tablet, you'd have to lock down the tablet to that single app by putting it into Kiosk mode/Single App mode.

[0] https://anton.app

[abootstrapper]

I don’t think it’s possible to build this app on an iPad. But, I taught my kids my phone number by making it their passcode. Before that I used it to teach them how to spell their name.

[dekervin]

Can I reach you over email ? Mine is in profile ! I want to share something not ready for primetime.

[mikesabat]

I sent an email - excited to see what you've got.

[kurrupttt]

wait. this is a great idea. i'm going to build this over the weekend.