[teleforce]

Not sure why are you very adamant in defending Israel's govt inhuman actions in all your postings? How do you sleep at night?

Not condoning suicide attack but early zionists in Israel are all the same attacking civilians by the same actions, and after more than hundreds years the autrocities still continue until today albeit in different inhuman forms [1].

Worst now they're using indiscriminate military bombings against Palestinian people mostly women and children that has no proper protection from state military [2]. From your logic and claims, zionist and Israel military don't match your so called western rationality and seems to be based on different standards.

Perhaps all these inhuman actions based on the fact that they wrongly believe that they're God's chosen people destined for the Heavens and will not be touched by the Hell fire for whatever autrocities they've committed? [3].

[1] The Hundred Years' War on Palestine:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Hundred_Years%27_War_on_Pa...

[2] Zionist political violence [1]:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionist_political_violence

[3] Chosen people:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chosen_people

[invalidname]

> Not sure why are you very adamant in defending Israel's govt inhuman actions in all your postings? How do you sleep at night?

I don't sleep great with all the constant rocket alarms because we're under fire and I have to take my kids to the safe room.

I'm not defending the Israeli government and very much didn't vote for them. I do explain specific policies that do make sense and the logic behind them.

> Not condoning suicide attack but early zionists in Israel are all the same attacking civilians by the same actions,

Nope. First off the use of the word "zionist" as a derogatory term is problematic. It just means "patriot" or the desire to live in Israel.

There were early attacks before the formation of Israel that can be broadly described as terrorist attacks. The difference in the severity and violence is staggering. E.g. the worst example is the hotel bombing: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_David_Hotel_bombing

But here are some huge differences:

* They called in advance to warn about the bomb - this was ignored due to human error

* They were hunted down by moderate Israelis

> and after more than hundreds years the autrocities still continue until today albeit in different inhuman forms

Here's a different take. Palestinians spent the past 120 years constantly fighting the Jews. Losing and making things worse for themselves. Had they accepted the Jews right to exist by their side we could have all prospered. Israel gave them multiple chances to end this. It offered them a state twice. It even left Gaza and cleared the settlements. Instead the people voted in Hamas and proceeded to take the billions given to them in order to build rockets and a war machine against Israel.

I'm not saying that Israel is innocent here. But as a country Israel did pretty much anything one could expect under such a situation.

> Worst now they're using indiscriminate military bombings against Palestinian people mostly women and children

Again. Not true and relies on false numbers/narratives. Bombing is very discriminate and it's based on intelligence. It's coordinated with legal oversight. There are failures for sure, but Israel is doing more to avoid civilian deaths than any country in history.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2025/04/05/far-past-time-to...

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2025/04/01/hamas-drop...

https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2025/03/pa...

Hell, the IDF even calls people on the phone to make sure they evacuate: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67327079

> From your logic and claims, zionist and Israel military don't match your so called western rationality and seems to be based on different standards.

Nope. It's the fact that you believe a false narrative propagated by Hamas that is the problem. That gives them an incentive to keep sacrificing Palestinian civilians to erode support for Israel under the false hope that it will cause trigger the countries demise.

> Perhaps all these inhuman actions based on the fact that they wrongly believe that they're God's chosen people destined for the Heavens and will not be touched by the Hell fire for whatever autrocities they've committed?.

I suggest looking at the demographics of Israel. Israel has one of the highest ratios of secular/atheists. It is a deeply liberal state. Tel Aviv is more gay than San Francisco. My kids go to school with Muslim kids who are also Israeli citizens and 20% of the population.

Hell, if I watched the nonsense John Oliver says I'd probably also hate Israel. The fact is, it's a very different country from the narrative some people are driving. The supposed facts you chose are deeply cherry picked.

But the people you're supposedly defending would stone a gay person or a woman for the crime of being raped. Have been behind multiple terrorist attacks against civilians in busses, malls, coffee shops and embassies. Have killed Americans and held them hostage. These are bad people.

Worse, their goal isn't independence. Their goal is to kill 10M Israelis. From the river to the sea means kill all Israelis.

[teleforce]

>I don't sleep great with all the constant rocket alarms because we're under fire and I have to take my kids to the safe room.

If you are direct descendants of the original Jews that have been living in the area for many centuries, I really hope that you and your family are safe from all the troubles.

But if you're of the new recent Jewish immigrants to the promised land of Israel, I've really bad news for you. Personally I'd migrate elsewhere than accidently caught in the perpetual crossfire [1],[2],[3].

> Israel has one of the highest ratios of secular/atheists

I'm not sure whether you're naive or pretending to be naive, but don't be fool to think that the Israel - Palestinian conflict is a nationalist or secular agenda, it's not and it's never was. It's highly religious matter and as you probably know the area surrounding Jerusalem is the holy land site for the three world's major religions namely Jewish, Christian and Islam, and the Jerusalem is mentioned specifically inside the Old Testament, New Testament and Quran, all originally in Semite based languages.

The root causes are religious and the solutions are also going to be religious based solutions, and those who think otherwise is either naive or in-denial, or both. There were already many many wars fought in the name of religions in Jerusalem, from David vs Goliath to subsequent Jewish wars with Persian and Roman, several hundreds years of Roman/Byzantine - Persian wars, several hundreds years of Crusades - Muslim wars, and now the Israel - Palestinian hundred years wars [1],[2],[3].

Fun facts, in the Quran Jewish people were mostly referred as Bani Israel (son of Israel or Yaakob/Jacob) not Yahudi as normally referred in the Arabic language, and both Cristians and Jewish together were referred as the People of the Books. The term 'Israel' is being used in the Quran more than thousands years ago, ironically it's being adopted by current Israel govt.

Another fun facts, most of the US Presidents (45) are descendants of the Eleanor of Aquitaine [4]. She's the Queen of France and later after her divorce, Queen of England. She's the mother of King Richard the Lionheart, the infamous Crusades King l, and also mother of King John Plantagenet. She's also the major sponsor and player of early Crusades [5].

[1] Jewish – Roman wars:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish%E2%80%93Roman_wars

[2] Roman - Persian Wars:

https://www.heritage-history.com/index.php?c=resources&s=war...

[3] Crusades:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crusades

[4] US Presidential Relationships to King John Plantagenet:

https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Space:US_Presidential_Relation...

[5] Eleanor of Aquitaine:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eleanor_of_Aquitaine

[invalidname]

> If you are direct descendants of the original Jews that have been living in the area for many centuries, I really hope that you and your family are safe from all the troubles.

That is an very problematic take. Some would might consider it racist.

Judia was here. That's a historic fact. Somehow you decided that the timeline for this being the "native country of a given people" is exactly in the right timeline to exclude the Jews. Like our right for the country has somehow elapsed because we experienced a genocide and didn't come back in time to reclaim our lost country...

Not that it matters but both me and my spouse were born in Israel as was the vast majority of this country. The claim that we're westerners is ludicrous and part of the typical anti-Israel propaganda.

My parents immigrated. My father escaped Morocco, my spouses father escaped Yemen. They both lost their homes as did 40% of the Jews who came to Israel from the east/south. Our mother's sides had vast families in Europe. Again a pretty common story...

> But if you're of the new recent Jewish immigrants to the promised land of Israel, I've really bad news for you. Personally I'd migrate elsewhere than accidently caught in the perpetual crossfire.

This sort of rhetoric is even more problematic. Many Jews are looking at people who say that and feel that Israel is our only home. This promotes Israeli nationalism and immigration to Israel.

Every time I'm in Europe and see the "pro-Palestine" demonstrators I'm thankful that I live in Israel. We might get rockets occasionally, but I feel safer walking the streets even if we have suicide bombers and shootings. At least we're together.

> I'm not sure whether you're naive or pretending to be naive, but don't be fool to think that the Israel - Palestinian conflict is a nationalist or secular agenda, it's not and it's never was.

I've been here for the past 50 years. I've had youth activities with Palestinian youths in the 80s and 90s. I know this very well.

I didn't hint in any waythat it's a secular conflict. It's 100% a religious conflict.

I said that Israel is mostly secular and had only one religious prime minister (for one year) and he had a Muslim party in his cabinet which was one of the most diverse in history.

That means that the religious problem that is at the root of the conflict is more to blame on the deeply religious element... Which is not Israel.

> It's highly religious matter and as you probably know the area surrounding Jerusalem is the holy land site for the three world's major religions namely Jewish, Christian and Islam, and the Jerusalem is mentioned specifically inside the Old Testament, New Testament and Quran, all originally in Semite based languages.

Are you seriously mansplaining my home country and its history to me?

> The term Israel was used in the Quran more than thousands it's being adopted by current Israel govt.

It's from the old testament, sons of Israel. I read the books.

[teleforce]

> Some would might consider it racist.

How come whoever pointing out the fact that those who're emigrated later to modern Israel for the past century since the Israel - Palestinian conflicts started are actually outside immigrants, they themselves can be considered racist?

Actually most people would consider artificial emigration en mass based on the dubious promised land claim of the holy book of one single race religion in this case Jewish, is the act of racism itself.

However, when the new immigrants govt started forcefully displacing the original native people out of the home without proper land purchase transactions and agreements of the local native populations, thus becoming majority in a very short time span. This very act is even more problematic beyond racism and under international law it can be considered apartheid [1].

Since your ancestors are from Morocco, imagine if the Jewish and the Muslim of Morocco in the near future start claiming back Spanish lands by emigrating en mass, and forcefully displacing the local native Spanish just because their ancestors have once lived and ruled Iberian peninsular for several hundreds years [2]. Is this hypothetical situation is fine with you?

Fun facts, now Spain is allowing and inviting the expelled Jewish descendants in Morocco to come back to Spain and become Spanish citizen [3]. Why do you think that they're not extending this goodwill offers to Muslim descendents that were also expelled alongside Jewish population from Spain? I think you'll probably the answer because allowing it will most probably upset the demographics of the current Spain due to potential en mass migration of this Muslim descendants compared to much smaller number of Jewish descendants.

[1] Apartheid:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apartheid

[2] Islam in Spain:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_Spain

[3] Spain passes citizenship plan for descendants of Jews exiled centuries ago (2015):

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-33102891

[invalidname]

> > Some would might consider it racist. > > How come whoever pointing out the fact that those who're emigrated later to modern Israel for the past century since the Israel - Palestinian conflicts started are actually outside immigrants, they themselves can be considered racist?

I explained it. It ignores the fact the Judea/Israel existed historically. It ignores the fact that Jews were prohibited from immigrating back to their homeland. It classifies Jews as immigrants and ignores the fact that Palestinians also immigrated mostly in recent centuries on the wings of the Ottoman empire. You effectively define a start/end date for homeland validity that conveniently leaves out Jews.

> Actually most people would consider artificial emigration en mass based on the dubious promised land claim of the holy book of one single race religion in this case Jewish, is the act of racism itself.

Again, deeply problematic. First off, there's historical facts that show the Jewish land in Israel. It's evident in the archeology and history, it isn't up for debate.

The "promised land" narrative and relation between Jews and Israel is in the Quran and Bible. I suggest reading them. In fact when talking to people from Muslim countries they sometimes don't connect the narrative of Israel and Judea etc.

Do you even know why Jews lost their land? Why it was called Palestine which was never a country?

The Roman emperor got tired of the rebellions coming out of Judea and decreed that every Jew in the area would be put to death. For the final f*ck you to the Jews he renamed the territory and picked a name based on the old enemies of the Jews: Philistines. Based on Jewish writings from the time roman horses waded in rivers of blood up to their necks... It worked.

> However, when the new immigrants govt started forcefully displacing

Again. Deeply false narrative.

First mistake is that a government displaced people. Nope. You're mixing between the occupied territories which are not a part of Israel and Israel. The Palestinians who stayed within Israel after 1948 are Israeli Arabs and have full citizenship. Not displaced. Those who ran away due to the war aren't the responsibility of Israel, that was a war Israel didn't choose and the consequences of the war aren't its fault.

> the original native people

Second mistake. They are not. They try to claim it and some people back that claim, but there is no evidence of that. There is no archeological evidence and no Palestinian people in history. They have no history in common and that's one of the big problems they have. Unlike Jews who unified and came together despite the long exile, Palestinians still slaughter each other to this day. Looking at them as a single people is deeply ignorant of who they are. If they were a single people they would have had a country ages ago. They would have followed a leader just like Begin yielded to Ben Gurion and enabled unity.

> out of the home without proper land purchase transactions and agreements of the local native populations

Third mistake. When Jews started immigrating to Israel they bought lands en-mass. 7% of the land was purchased until Palestinian leaders and the British put a stop to that.

Most of the land had problematic ownership history during those times. After the war and the formation of Israel the status of many areas became in flux as many people were displaced on both sides. Due to that war Jews who were living in Muslim majority countries had to flee their homes and come to Israel while losing everything. That's 40% of the immigration to Israel. They too lost everything. Not to mention the Jews who were displaced/murdered in the holocaust.

This was not unique or special in any way: https://www.news18.com/opinion/opinion-why-muslim-world-shou...

> This very act is even more problematic beyond racism and under international law it can be considered apartheid

You provided the wrong link. It also very clearly states that this is not the case:

"inhuman acts committed for the purpose of establishing and maintaining domination by one racial group of persons over any other racial group of persons and systematically oppressing them."

When Israel was formed in 1948 all Arab residents that remained instantly became citizens with full rights. So there's no racial aspect here. Was there discrimination? Sure. But that's not apartheid and not systemic.

Notice that after that and most following wars Palestinians still had most of the territory the UN assigned to them. But they were occupied by Jordan and Egypt. In the 6 day war Israel was surrounded with the purpose of obliteration, the running joke in Israel was "The experiment is over, the last one out turn off the lights" (there are still people living today who remember the level of existential dread this brought). Instead of crumbling Israel attacked and took over the occupied territories. But unlike historic cases it didn't annex them because the Arab population was much larger. This is the source of most of the problems we have today.

Had Israel been an apartheid state or interested in ethnic cleansing the Palestinians would be gone in 67. It wasn't interested in that then and isn't interested in that now although there are people in the extreme right-wing who are pushing for that and getting traction because the attempts at peace failed.

In the occupied territories you could try and argue an apartheid based on that definition. But that's not technically true. It's not a part of Israel and Israel literally left Gaza (removing its citizens) and tried to leave the West bank. There's a problem there for sure, but using existing terms like that is intentionally misleading.

> Since your ancestors are from Morocco, imagine if the Jewish and the Muslim of Morocco in the near future start claiming back Spanish lands by emigrating en mass, and forcefully displacing the local native Spanish just because their ancestors have once lived and ruled Iberian peninsular for several hundreds years. Is this hypothetical situation is fine with you?

Jews came back to Israel when it was ruled by the Ottoman and British empires. Unlike your example, there was no country to "invade". It seems that you accept hate toward immigrants... Are you OK with hate toward other immigrant populations that aren't Jews?

Are you comparing Palestinians to MAGA?

> Fun facts, now Spain is allowing and inviting the expelled Jewish descendants in Morocco to come back to Spain and become Spanish citizen [3]. Why do you think that they're not extending this goodwill offers to Muslim descendents that were also expelled alongside Jewish population from Spain?

This was old news and has ended by now. You should ask the Spain why they didn't provide it to Muslims. I don't see the relevance here. Spain/Portugal etc don't have enough birth rate to sustain population and needs immigration to keep the economy going, this is an incentive for that.

Why do you think this is relevant to the situation in Israel which is radically different in every regard?

[teleforce]

>The "promised land" narrative and relation between Jews and Israel is in the Quran and Bible.

This false narrative is the very root cause of the current problems in Israel and Palestinian conflict.

I'm not anti-immigration as you accused me of, far from it but I think you need to accept the fact that emigration en mass to any part of the world is not natural and will definitely causing instability. The situation in Israel cannot be justified similarly as if the Muslim want to emigrate en mass back to Spain. However you never answer my questions what's your personal opinions regarding this similar hypothetical situation?

I'd really appreciate if you can provide the valid references of the verses for the dubious promised land narrative in the Quran and Bibles with respect to modern Israel (not ancient Moses time).

The original promised land narrative was for the Moses Jewish followers at that specific time and it has been fulfilled at that particular time although not without much bruhaha. Ironically it's reported in the Quran that the Jews at the time famously and cowardly refused to enter and fight alongside Moses into Jerusalem and God caused them to be lost in the wilderness for 40 years as a punishment from God [1]. Not until after Moses death that the Jews can later enter Jerusalem for good and any learned Jews should know these very facts.

Another interesting potential fact is that most of the current Palestinians are actually the descendents from the original Jewish people living in the ancient Judea time that have converted to Islam. I think Israel govt can and should check the Palestinian people ancestry based on DNA test accordingly. If that's true it will make the current Israel govt as self-hating Jews or self-hating Semite. Potentially, some of the Palestinians may have higher Jews ancentors percentage from the ancient Judea Jews population than the emigrants themselves. This will be very ironic and very sad situations at the same time, after all these series of deadly conflicts over hundred years. I'd like to know your honest opinions on this matter as well since it's a very highly likely situation.

As for Muslim anything in the Old Testament and New Testament (both directly sent to Jews and not for other races) are dubious in its contents veracity and some of the original verses had been changed illegally to suite the Jewish community. Hebrew as a language is mostly forgotten for several thousands of years and even in Jerusalem at the time of Jesus back in the very 1st CE, the Jerusalem people were speaking Aramaic (a Semitic Syrian language closer to Arabic than Hebrew) [2]. God's words in holy books are not supposed be changed and apparently all previous holy books sent by God (to Jews or other races) were not guaranteed their contents except Quran.

>Third mistake. When Jews started immigrating to Israel they bought lands en-mass. 7% of the land was purchased until Palestinian leaders and the British put a stop to that.

According to reluable sources only a few percents or around less than 3% of land properties were legally bought by the Israel Jewish community from the Palestinians.

But honestly, even if we take your inflated claim of legal land purchases at 7%, do you honestly think the Palestinian would sell the Jews the remainder of the 93% land if the British and the Palestinian authority had not stop the land purchasing exercises?

>In the occupied territories you could try and argue an apartheid based on that definition.

The proof is in the pudding. You can ask the remaining survivors of the apartheid regime from South Africa to visit Gaza and West Bank, and ask them is their apartheid version is worst or better than what the Palestinian are experiencing right now. I cannot recall any incidents where the South Arican black news broadcasting stations, people houses, schools, hospital, house of worships, etc were indiscriminately and systematically decimated from the air by the South African govt at the time. Israel really took the definition of apartheid to the next level /s.

Do you not know that throughout history for over more than a thousand years never ever have any Muslim authorities totally expelled or decimated the Jewish population. This is because together with Christian, Jews are considered and respected as the people of the Books. The same cannot be said to the Nazi and the Spain Inquisition, just to name a few. Not sure you know about this fact, at one time all Jews were banished altogether from the entire British islands and the current Jews now in British Islands are the descendants from later emigrants.

Under the Muslim empires, the Jews not only surviving but were thriving. The fact that Jewish current canonical versions of Jewish holy books or Hebrew Bible or Tanakh, namely the 10th-century medieval Masoretic Text compiled by the Masoretes (currently used in Rabbinic Judaism), were brought back and edited during the Islamic Caliphates period as the Hebrew language has been unspoken for several thousand of years as I've mentioned earlier [2],[3]. If the Muslim authorities want to get rid of the Jews as did the Nazi, the Spanish and the British, it's not certainly beyond their means and capabilities, it's a matter of won't not can't. You are the living proof and testament to this fact since your ancestors were from Morocco where it's a predominantly Muslim community and Jewish community have been continously living in Morocco (and many other muslim majority countries) for more than a thousand years.

I'd strongly suggest you read the The Hundred Years' War on Palestine book, from the academic perspective of the situations. The author Rashid Khalidi is the Editor of the reputable Journal of Palestine Studies based in the US. His relative was once the mayor in Jerusalem a hundred years ago, and the book begins with an examination of correspondence from 1889 between his relative Yusuf Diya ad-Din Pasha al-Khalidi, mayor of Jerusalem, and Theodor Herzl, father of modern political Zionism [4],[5].

[1] Musa Reminds His People of Allah's Favors on Them; The Jews Refuse to Enter the Holy Land:

https://quran.com/al-maidah/20/tafsirs

[2] Hebrew language:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hebrew_language

[3] Hebrew Bible:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hebrew_Bible

[4] The Hundred Years' War on Palestine:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Hundred_Years%27_War_on_...

[5] A new abyss’: Gaza and the hundred years’ war on Palestine:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/apr/11/a-new-abyss-ga...