[WalterBright]

Do you really want a return to the days when "women's work" was spending every free moment spinning and weaving cloth by hand? When cloth was so valuable there was a profession called "rag pickers"? Where new clothes were rare, hand me downs were the usual, and people wore clothes until they disintegrated? And poor people made clothes out of flour sacks?

[lucas_membrane]

Those days were after the rich had commenced urbanization by driving the agrarian workers off the land and encouraging them to find work at dismal wages in the city, made it a crime to be a vagrant, and funded charities that collaborated with judges to force the poor into workhouses where they could enjoy abuse, degradation and misery from cradle to early grave.

[nancyminusone]

Sure would be nice to make clothes from flour sacks again, but alas; today's sacks are made of polypropylene.

[dontlaugh]

That’s not what the Luddites wanted. They praised the technology itself and recognised it would save a lot of time. But they also recognised that they the workers wouldn’t reap any of those benefits, they’d just lose their jobs.

Do you really think capitalists would choose to shorten the working day with no loss of pay as productivity increases? If so, you are incredibly naive.

[WalterBright]

The workers did reap the benefits. The Law of Supply and Demand ensures it. 1.1% of the US labor force works at minimum wage jobs.

When wages are raised by the government, job losses happen. 16,000 to 36,000 people lost their jobs when California raised the minimum wage for fast food workers.

> Do you really think capitalists would choose to shorten the working day with no loss of pay as productivity increases?

During WW2, production needed to increase, so hours were increased to 60 hour weeks. The labor force, very patriotic, was all for this. Production increased for a few weeks, and then fell below what was produced in a 40 hour week. Companies wanting to maximize profits are aware of this effect.

Also, if you track employee total compensation (not just wages) against productivity increases, the two lines form the same curve. The reason for this is the Law of Supply and Demand pushes those two lines together. The more productive a worker is, the more they get paid, as such workers are more in demand.

[WarOnPrivacy]

> The workers did reap the benefits. The Law of Supply and Demand ensures it. 1.1% of the US labor force works at minimum wage jobs.

Minimum wage is one indicator of critically substandard living. Here is a small sampling of some others:

    well over minimum wage + below the poverty line
    no discernible exits off path to unhoused retirement
    current, recurring or impending homelessness
    food insecurity and recurring hunger
    medically triggered impoverishment
    only possible caregiver for loved one with medical issues

[schmidtleonard]

> if you track employee total compensation (not just wages) against productivity increases, the two lines form the same curve

If you count inflation in medical and housing costs as an increase in wages, the "wedge" disappears, yes -- but why would you do that for any other purpose than making the wedge disappear?

No, it's very telling that labor saving devices, which have squished the largest industry into economic insignificance many times over, have not resulted in the ability for normal people to work less. Clearly, the benefits have gone elsewhere. "The benefits went into technology! Think of the iPhones!" The median financed smartphone is 1/50th the cost of median rent, try again.

[daedrdev]

employers pay for the massively increased medical costs directly though? Its not hard to see that when medical costs increase by 6-10% they would hesitate to increase wages

[immibis]

Put it this way: If the government increases my tax by $10k per year and my employer increases my gross salary $10k per year in response, did I get a pay raise?

Also, it's known that as medical prices rise, the percentage of the prices that insurance actually pays goes down. Are you sure they're paying more?

Also, why do countries with universal healthcare have such cheaper healthcare of a similar quality?

[immibis]

> 1.1% of the US labor force works at minimum wage jobs.

Far too high. Abject failure. The US's minimum wage is approximately the wage where you could work 24/7 and break even. Anyone working at that wage is in a very bad situation or someone else is paying all their bills.

[specialist]

Now include profit (surplus) in your analysis.

Wage grow has not kept pace with corporate profitability. Why?

[WalterBright]

Because the correct comparison would be with total compensation, of which wages are only a portion.

Total compensation is the costs to an employer to hire some one. It includes:

1. contributions to retirement plans

2. so-called "employer paid" social security contributions

3. sick and paid vacation days

4. employer paid health insurance

5. stock plans

6. 401k plans

7. other payroll taxes

Last time I checked, these often added 40% or more over the takehome pay.

Also, the pay is based on the value the employee as an individual provides, not the value the company as a whole created. Just like the compensation for pro football players varies in a single team.

[gamblor956]

Beyond Social Security contributions, which is legally mandated, most workers don't get the remaining items on your list. (And #7 is just double-counting #2.)

It's like saying, a CEO gets a housing allowance and travel allowance and can expense most of their meals, so the entry level worker is doing okay.

[specialist]

Am corrected. Updated question:

Now include profit (surplus) in your analysis.

Total compensation has not kept pace with corporate profitability. Why?

--

> Just like the compensation for pro football players varies in a single team.

Then why do professional athletes have unions?

[gamblor956]

Also, if you track employee total compensation (not just wages) against productivity increases, the two lines form the same curve.

This hasn't been true for at least two decades. Employee compensation severely lags productivity increases, and the capital class captures the entirety of the benefit of that lag.

The more productive a worker is, the more they get paid, as such workers are more in demand.

No. If that were true CEOs and VCs would get paid pennies, and most software programmers would get paid close to minimum wage today (programs are slower and buggier than they were 20 years ago despite having 100x or more increase in hardware resources and offering the same or reduced functionality).

[dontlaugh]

Whenever I see you post on HN I’m reminded about “don’t meet your heroes”. You are so politically naive and indoctrinated for someone so smart.

[WalterBright]

You might be interested to know that political discussions are not allowed in the D forums (or any non-programming topics). We also don't discuss politics at the D conferences.

> You are so politically naive and indoctrinated

How can you be sure it's not the other way around? :-)