[dale_huevo]

Yes.

"Repairable" is a bit of a fool's errand. It really hinges on availability of spare parts, supply chain, etc. They will never sell enough of this niche product to nerds to make that a long-term reality.

An old MBP is far more repairable because so many were made there will never be a shortage of parts on eBay.

While an emphasis on repairability is noble, the false prophet of brick-like pluggable USB modules ain't it.

The newest Apple laptops all have easily replaceable ports that do not require replacing the logic board, so that novelty is even more useless.

[stavros]

I'm far more likely to buy a RAM stick off the shelf and install it in a Framework than I am to desolder the RAM from a Macbook.

Similarly, if I spill orange juice on a Framework, I can just buy a new keyboard and install it in a minute. If it were a Macbook, I'd probably throw away the whole thing, since I'd have to disassemble all of it to get to the keyboard, and it would take me hours, if I even managed to not break something.

So, "Macbooks are more repairable than Frameworks" is quite the take.

[dale_huevo]

But are you really going to repair it?

Or, upon spilling the juice, realize you can get a Surface Go on sale at Walmart (which this seems to be a clone of) for a bit more than a replacement keyboard and your time (which is way more than a minute) and toss it in the trash anyway.

[nucleardog]

It really doesn't seem like you're trying to engage constructively here.

Framework sells keyboards for the Framework 13 for ~$30. I can find a Surface Go on sale for as low as $500.

No, I don't think anyone's going to throw out a $500-$1000 device because it needs a $30 part and maybe 15 minutes of work (steps here: https://www.ifixit.com/Guide/Framework+Laptop+12+Input+Cover...) and they could instead replace their laptop with a tablet for a mere $470 more.

[dale_huevo]

> It really doesn't seem like you're trying to engage constructively here.

So I'm not allowed to disagree? For the record: I think the Framework laptop, while a noble cause, is a foolish endeavor as executed and they will be out of business in 5 years.

I'm assuming you've stocked spare parts because by the time you need a new keyboard, there is a chance they will be out of production (or out of business) and those parts, now rare, will be fetching $100s on eBay.

[Dylan16807]

You're allowed to disagree with many aspects of repairability.

When you suggest that a surface go on sale is "a bit more" than a replacement keyboard, you're just wrong. That's not an opinion.

Also with the framework 16 replacing the keyboard actually is a minute. https://www.ifixit.com/Guide/Framework+Laptop+16-Inch+Keyboa...

[ncallaway]

> So I'm not allowed to disagree? For the record: I think the Framework laptop, while a noble cause, is a foolish endeavor as executed and they will be out of business in 5 years.

:shrug: people said the same thing when I first bought my laptop 4 years ago. Parts are readily available today, and I expect them to be so in a year.

If nine years after I bought the laptop I can't get a replacement keyboard, I'll be a bit disappointed that the project failed, but the laptop will easily be net-positive from a cost benefit perspective long before that

[nrp]

I'll take the other side of that bet!

[ncallaway]

> But are you really going to repair it?

Yes.

I've upgraded and repaired my framework laptop several times over the years. I've very familiar with opening it up and disassembling it.

Replacing the keyboard if I damaged it would absolutely be something I would do.

[eloisant]

The kind of people who buy Framework laptops would repair them, yes.

[stavros]

Yep, I definitely 100% would, immediately.

[radus]

> But are you really going to repair it?

Yes

[encom]

FrameWork is not openly hostile towards right-to-repair, and do not actively sabotage repair efforts. Try calling Apple and ask for spare parts or circuit diagrams. Anything you find is either leaked, cloned/copied or trash-picked. It barely qualifies as spare parts.

[criddell]

They don't have circuit diagrams, but they do sell some replacement parts and do have repair manuals online that are geared towards supported repairs.

https://support.apple.com/en-us/122003

[autoexec]

They only reluctantly offered those things after their hand was forced https://www.theverge.com/2021/11/17/22787336/apple-right-to-...

[sixothree]

Wow. The process to replace a keyboard is pretty much insane.

[djaychela]

>"Repairable" is a bit of a fool's errand. It really hinges on availability of spare parts, supply chain, etc. They will never sell enough of this niche product to nerds to make that a long-term reality.

I don't think that's the case - there are plenty of people who realise that eWaste is a problem, and I've lost count of the number of times I've been asked why a laptop can't just have a "new CPU" fitted to speed it up when everything else works. In reality this means a new system board, but Framework does this.

>An old MBP is far more repairable because so many were made there will never be a shortage of parts on eBay.

That's not comparing like with like. I've done a -lot- of fixing of old (2012-era) macbooks and secondhand parts are always a crap shoot. Plus there are lots of minor changes between otherwise identical-looking parts which mean they don't fit (such as the higher-DPI screen connector between 2011 and 2012 for otherwise identical-looking parts which are indistinguishable until it doesn't quite fit.

>While an emphasis on repairability is noble, the false prophet of brick-like pluggable USB modules ain't it.

That's adaptability and means you can get the IO you need. The computer could be entirely non-repairable and have this, or it could be framework where everything is available brand new as a spare part if you need it.

>The newest Apple laptops all have easily replaceable ports that do not require replacing the logic board, so that novelty is even more useless.

I think you might be misinformed here. Lots of stuff is now serial locked and won't work even if you swap it over. And that's not counting some of the terrible low-level engineering stuff which people like Louis Rossman highlight (such as placement of higher-voltage lines right next to direct-to-cpu lines in display connectors). And I'm sure you know about the simple voltage controller that fails that Apple won't allow the original supplier to sell to anyone else.

Even replacing the battery in my 2022 MBP (which I'm using now and absolutely love) would be a trial compared to the framework. One of the USB ports has always been dicky and I've just left it as is precisely because this is a can of worms.

Watch some dosdude1 repair videos of examples of how much work and skill is needed to do something such as upgrade the storage in a MBP/Air. And compare this to the framework. They are several orders of magnitude different in terms of skill level.

[kokada]

If you go to the Framework website you can still find spare parts for their first gen laptops, because one thing they did is make sure that the latest gen parts are still compatible with their first gen.

Also, on a Mac if the memory or storage dies, you need to replace the whole motherboard, that isn't true in a Framework laptop. You can't even say that those parts will be difficult to get in the future because they're off the shelf parts.

I will not even start on the fact that replacing other parts that commonly break in a laptop like the screen or the keyboard are hard to do in a MacBook (needs to disassemble almost the whole laptop) vs doing it in Framework that is much easier and probably takes 20 minutes even without experience.

[l72]

I had a usb dock that surged, destroying the dock and my touchpad. A $25 replacement from framework, and under 5 minutes to swap things out, and I was good as new!