[wkat4242]

I don't use the others you mention. Only telegram because many communities are there (it's the only chat app with good group chat functionality)

But it's exactly because I already have to deal with too many of them that I don't want to add more.

Also I don't like moxie's attitude but that's more of a personal concern that won't apply to most. Like not allowing third party clients or federation and shooting many suggestions down on github. It's his right to do that but it's also mine to not want to use it. For a "just a little bit better" experience I'm not moving to that.

I use matrix a lot and I think this is by far the best and most open option but most people don't know it. I bridge all the other apps through it now. Also, arathorn is a much nicer person who responds much better to criticism.

> If there was a non-American alternative to Signal, surely I would go for it. But there isn't. In the meantime, Signal is by far the best alternative to WhatsApp in terms of privacy.

But I wouldn't be able to actually move. It would just be yet another one. Not even much better in any way than whatsapp.

> Not to mention that there is actually a valid reason to not allow third party apps (spoiler: security). Last time I heard a fork of Signal making the news, it was pretty bad.

I don't care so much about that (and I work in cybersec). What matters more to me is being in control of my data. Being able to export them wherever I want etc.

I had an issue recently with whatsapp where they locked my account because of "spam". I wasn't spamming but they probably thought my matrix bridge was suspicious. However because of that bridge I could still access my chat data. I couldn't in whatsapp itself. Signal could do the same to me. So I would only use it bridged to Matrix anyway, like I do whatsapp.

And in terms of security: I don't believe neither WhatsApp nor Signal is good enough to prevent a state actor from reading my messages. Even if they can't get in the app they can compromise an endpoint. And even a bad third-party app will be sufficient to prevent drive-by hackers with a pineapple from reading my messages. So I don't see much difference there.

[palata]

For someone who "works in cybersec", you have surprising opinions...

Like you seem to care about your messages not being entirely public ("And even a bad third-party app will be sufficient to prevent drive-by hackers with a pineapple from reading my messages") but at the same time you're fine with Telegram not being E2EE.

And then you seem to consider that a state actor being able to read the messages in transit is the same as them hacking into the phones?

And it all suggests that somehow the only reasonable threat model is "not caring about a state actor targetting oneself specifically and not caring about anything more than 'drive-by hackers with a pineapple'"?

[wkat4242]

I work in cybersec, not saying I'm a good one :) I hate my job (moving into cyber was a mistake) but I'm currently staying in it for mortgage reasons. And I don't ascribe to the regular security dogma.

I think third-party signal apps are just too thin a target for anyone intermediate to bother. Signal itself hardly is. Also, most of the stuff I discuss on these is just banter and stupid memes that people send me.

[dotancohen]

  > But I wouldn't be able to actually move. It would just be yet another one.

Actually, you would. A few months ago WhatsApp had a huge downtime in my country, and lots of people move to Telegram. It turns out, just telling people that you're moving to Telegram, that's enough to get them to move with you. I was already on Telegram, but I saw it happen enough times to be surprised myself.

Just don't keep a backup WhatsApp account around, because then people will use it.

[wkat4242]

I don't think that will work with the massive whatsapp userbase we have here. Literally everyone I know is on whatsapp.

It's really not worth the hassle for me especially since signal is only marginally better.

[palata]

What is "the hassle"? Do you mean the few seconds required to install Signal on your phone? Or do you mean converting all your friends to Signal?

I understand the latter, but for the former... it's probably faster to install Signal than to answer to a message on HN.

If everybody just installed Signal (because it's better, even if marginally), then eventually everybody would be on Signal and it would be easy to switch.

[wkat4242]

I just don't believe in this signal evangelism. I'm not going to use it. Once something comes that's really open like Matrix I'll support it. RCS isn't it either as you need to be part of the mobile service provider in-crowd to run your own.

But the hassle is dealing with all these different apps and their separate notifications. I have real app fatigue lately and turn them off for mostly everything.

[palata]

> I just don't believe in this signal evangelism.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not a Signal fanatic. I'm just quick at moving to better alternatives. If a better alternative than Signal gets announced in 10min, I'll be on it in 11min and I'll be telling you to try it in 12min :-).

The fact is that Signal is probably the best messaging app we have right now. I get the app fatigue, I don't get why the result of it should be to fight precisely the better alternative. "I hate that we're locked in WhatsApp, but I am actively fighting for keeping us locked in".

[wkat4242]

It's more like passive resistance, not active. I just won't bother constantly moving to alternatives unless they are substantially better.

If everyone starts using signal I'll go along. But they won't so they're isn't any point. I'll still need WhatsApp so they'll keep tracking me. Signal also has poorer group chats (no subtopics for example) which I use a lot.

And if they get big quickly they'll run out of funds and will have to make similar decisions. They're not going to continue being funded by big tech bros like Brian Acton's 50M$ if their costs balloon. For me to actively promote it and use it without a big userbase, it will have to be so open that I can run my own server, like email. I do run matrix for that reason. I like ownership of my services and I'd rather contribute to the network than donating.

Ps: if he really wanted to help accessible safe communications he shouldn't have sold WhatsApp.

I see more in solutions to thwart their tracking. Such as using a matrix bridge, which I do. I do the same with search, I use a meta-search engine to remove tracking and ads. I can also customise it to my wishes that way.