[littlestymaar]

Pretty much nobody does those two things at the same time:

- pulling dependencies with cargo - auditing the source code of the dependencies they're building

You are either censoring and vetting everything or you're using dependencies from crates.io (ideally after you've done your due diligence on the crate), but should crates.io be compromised and inject malware in the crates' payload, I'm ready to bet nobody would notice for a long time.

I fully agree with GP that binary vs source code wouldn't change anything in practice.

[ninkendo]

> Pretty much nobody does those two things at the same time: - pulling dependencies with cargo - auditing the source code of the dependencies they're building

Your “pretty much” is probably weaseling you out of any criticism here, but I fully disagree:

My IDE (rustrover) has “follow symbol” support, like every other IDE out there, and I regularly drill into code I’m calling in external crates. Like, just as often as my own code. I can’t imagine any other way of working: it’s important to read code you’re calling to understand it, regardless of whether it’s code made by someone else in the company, or someone else in the world.

My IDE’s search function shows all code from all crates in my dependencies. With everything equal regardless of whether it’s in my repo or not. It just subtly shades the external dependencies a slightly different color. I regularly look at a trait I need from another crate, and find implementations across my workspace and dependencies, including other crates and impls within the defining crate. Yes, this info is available on docs.rs but it’s 1000x easier to stay within my IDE, and the code itself is available right there inline, which is way more valuable than docs alone.

I think it’s insane to not read code you depend on.

Does this mean I’m “vetting” all the code I depend on? Of course not. But I’m regularly reading large chunks of it. And I suspect a large chunk of people work the way I do; There are a lot of eyeballs on public crates due to them being distributed as source, and this absolutely has a tangible impact on supply chain attacks.

[littlestymaar]

You answer your own argument here:

> Does this mean I’m “vetting” all the code I depend on? Of course not.

Inspecting public facing parts of the code is one thing, finding nasty stuff obfuscated in a macro definition or in a Default or Debug implementation of a private type that nobody is ever going to check outside of auditors is a totally different thing.

> My IDE (rustrover) has “follow symbol” support

I don't know exactly how it works for RustRover, since I know Jetbrain has reimplemented some stuff on their own, but if it evaluates proc macros (like rust-analyzer) does, then by the time you step into the code it's too late, proc macros aren't sandboxed in any ways and your computer could be compromised already.

[ninkendo]

The point of my argument is not to say I’m vetting anything, but to say that there are tons of eyeballs on crates today, because of the fact that they are distributed as source and not a binary. It’s not a silver bullet but every little bit helps, every additional eyeball makes hiding things harder.

The original claim is that “pretty much no one” reads any of their dependencies, in order to support a claim that they should be distributed as binaries, meaning “if there was no source available at all in your IDE, it wouldn’t make a difference”, which is just a flatly wrong claim IMO.

A disagreement may be arising here about the definition of “audit” vs “reading” source code, but I’d argue it doesn’t matter for my point, which is that additional eyeballs matter for finding issues in dependencies, and seeing the source of your crates instead of a binary blob is essential for this.

[littlestymaar]

> The original claim is that “pretty much no one” reads any of their dependencies,

No the claim is that very few people read the dependencies[1] enough to catch a malicious piece of code. And I stand by it. “Many eyeballs” is a much weaker guarantee when people are just doing “go to definition” from their code (for instance you're never gonna land on a build.rs file this way, yet they are likely the most critical piece of code when it comes to supply chain security).

[1] (on their machines, that is if you do that on github it doesn't count since you have no way to tell it's the same code)

[ninkendo]

> No the claim is that very few people read the dependencies[1] enough to catch a malicious piece of code.

You’re shifting around between reading enough to catch any issue (which I could easily do if a vulnerability was right there staring at me when I follow symbol) to catching all issues (like your comment about build.rs.) Please stick with one and avoid moving goal posts around.

There exists a category of dependency issues that I could easily spot in my everyday reading of my dependencies’ source code. It’s not all of them. Your claim is that I would spot zero of them, which is overly broad.

You’re also trying to turn this into a black-or-white issue, as if to say that if it isn’t perfect (ie. I don’t regularly look at build.rs), it isn’t worth anything, which is antithetical to good security. The more eyeballs the better, and the more opportunities to spot something awry, the better.

[littlestymaar]

I'm not moving the goal post, a supply chain attack is an adversarial situation it is not about spotting an issue occurring at random, it is about spotting an issue specially crafted to avoid detection. So in practice you are either able to spot every kind of issues, or none of the relevant ones because if there's one kind that reliably slips through, then you can be certain that the attacker will focus on this kind and ignore the trivial to spot ones.

If anything, having access to the source code gives you an illusion of security, which is probably the worse place to be in.

The worse ecosystem when it comes to supply chain attacks is arguably the npm one, yet there anyone can see the source and there are almost two orders of magnitude more eyeballs.