[HDThoreaun]

arc agi is the closest any widely used benchmark is coming to an IQ test, its straight logic/reasoning. Looking at the problem set its hard for me to choose a better benchmark for "when this is better than humans we have agi"

[saberience]

There are humans who cannot do arc agi though so how does an LLM not doing it mean that LLMs don’t have general intelligence?

LLMs have obviously reached the point where they are smarter than almost every person alive, better at maths, physics, biology, English, foreign languages, etc.

But because they can’t solve this honestly weird visual/spatial reasoning test they aren’t intelligent?

That must mean most humans on this planet aren’t generally intelligent too.

[HDThoreaun]

> LLMs have obviously reached the point where they are smarter than almost every person alive, better at maths, physics, biology, English, foreign languages, etc.

I dont think memorizing stuff is the same as being smart. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_room

> But because they can’t solve this honestly weird visual/spatial reasoning test they aren’t intelligent?

Yes. Being intelligent is about recognizing patterns and thats what arc agi tests. It tests ability to learn. A lot of people are not very smart.

[ben_w]

> I dont think memorizing stuff is the same as being smart. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_room

I agree. The problem I have with the Chinese Room thought experiment is: just as the human who mechanically reading books to answer questions they don't understands does not themselves know Chinese, likewise no neuron in the human brain knows how the brain works.

The intelligence, such as it is, is found in the process that generated the structure — of the translation books in the Chinese room, of the connectome in our brains, and of the weights in an LLM.

What comes out of that process is an artefact of intelligence, and that artefact can translate Chinese or whatever.

Because all current AI take a huge number of examples to learn anything, I think it's fair to say they're not particularly intelligent — but likewise, they can to an extent make up for being stupid by being stupid very very quickly.

But: this definition of intelligence doesn't really fit "can solve novel puzzle", as there's a lot of room for getting good at that my memorising lot of things that puzzle-creators tend to do.

And any mind (biological or synthetic) must learn patterns before getting started: the problem of induction* is that no finite number of examples is ever guaranteed to be sufficient to predict the next item in a sequence, there is always an infinite set of other possible solutions in general (though in reality bounded by 2^n, where n = the number of bits required to express the universe in any given state).

I suspect, but cannot prove, that biological intelligence learns from fewer examples for a related reason, that our brains have been given a bias by evolution towards certain priors from which "common sense" answers tend to follow. And "common sense" is often wrong, c.f. Aristotelian physics (never mind Newtonian) instead of QM/GR.

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Problem_of_induction

[saberience]

The LLMs are not just memorising stuff though, they solve math and physics problems better than almost every person alive. Problems they've never seen before. They write code which has never been seen before better than like 95% of active software engineers.

I love how the bar for are LLMs smart just goes up every few months.

In a year it will be, well, LLMs didn't create totally breakthrough new Quantum Physics, it's still not as smart as us... lol

[HDThoreaun]

All code has been seen before, thats why LLMs are so good at writing it.

I agree things are looking up for LLMs, but the semantics do matter here. In my experience LLMs are still pretty bad at solving novel problems(like arc agi 2) which is why I do not believe they have much intelligence. They seem to have started doing it a little, but are still mostly regurgitating.

[bjourne]

Well... There are two perspectives. Llms are smarter than we thought or people are stupider than we thought.