[derektank]

And, perhaps most relevantly, the regulatory environment the people are working in. French people working in America are probably more productive than French people working in France (if for no other reason because they probably work more hours in America than France).

[8n4vidtmkvmk]

Are we sure more time butt in office equates to more productivity?

[FabHK]

> Are we sure more time butt in office equates to more productivity?

Typically more output, but less productivity (= output/time).

[1propionyl]

Yes, specifically when it comes to open-ended research or development, collocation is non-negotiable. There are greater than linear benefits in creativity of approach, agility in adapting to new intermediate discoveries, etc that you get by putting a number of talented people who get along in the same space who form a community of practice.

Remote work and flattening communication down to what digital media (Slack, Zoom, etc) afford strangle the beneficial network effects.

[throwaway0123_5]

I think they were talking about total time spent working rather than remote vs. in-person. I've seen more than a few studies over the years showing that going from 40 to 35 or 30 hours/wk has minimal or positive impacts on productivity. Idk if that would apply to all work environments though, and I don't recall any of the studies being about research productivity specifically.

[hdjrudni]

> I think they were talking about total time spent working rather than remote vs. in-person.

I was, yes. I should have omitted the "in office" part but I was referencing the "work more hours in America than France"

[distortionfield]

You’re being downvoted but you’re right. The number of people who act like a web cam reproduces the in person experience perfectly, for good and bad, is hilarious to me.

[alienbaby]

I think the mistake people make is believing that one approach is best for all. Diffferent people work most effectively in different ways.

[jama211]

Well said. If you make me commute to an office I’m far far far less productive, simple as that.

[meta_ai_x]

Yes, especially in cutting edge research areas where other high functioning people with high energy isarelso there.

You can write your in-house CRUD app in your basement or your office and it doesn't matter.

The vast majority of HN crowd and general social/mainstream media don't make the difference between these two scenarios

[adventured]

$89,000 GDP per capita vs $46,000 rather proves the point about productivity per butt. US office workers are extraordinarily productive in terms of what their work generates (thanks to numerous well understood things like the outsized US scaling abilities). Measuring beyond that is very difficult due to the variance of every business.

[ath92]

Weird take. Norway has about the same gdp per capita as the USA with stricter regulations than France. Ireland’s GDP per capita is higher than that of the USA, with less bureaucracy than France but more than the US. Not to mention that all of these are before adjusting for PPP. Almost as if GDP per capita is not a good measurement of productivity.

[FabHK]

Many wrinkles here.

First, one should probably look at GNP (or even GNI) rather than GDP to reduce the distortionary impact of foreign direct investment, company headquarters for tax reasons, etc.

Next, need to distinguish between market rate and PPP, as you highlight.

Lastly, these are all measures of output (per capita), while productivity is output per input, in this context output per hour worked. There the differences are less pronounced.

[HPsquared]

Monaco is the most productive country in the world in nominal GDP per capita. A very industrious place, it seems!

[cataphract]

A part of that figure is an artifact of how strong the dollar is though.

[palata]

> $89,000 GDP per capita vs $46,000 rather proves the point about productivity per butt.

So if I work 24h/day in a farm in Afghanistan, I should earn more than software developers in the Silicon Valley (because I'm pretty sure that they sleep)? Is that how you say GDP works?

[77pt77]

Yes, and Louisiana has a GDP per capita on par of higher than France and is a shithole compared to the worst areas of Europe, let alone France.

But I wouldn't expect someone like you to know, understand or even acknowledge it.

[numpad0]

I think maybe we should completely switch to admitting this. Every extra second you sit in the (home)office adds to productivity, just not necessarily converting into market values, that can be inflated with hype. Also longer hours is not necessarily safe or sustainable.

We only wish more time != more productivity because it's inconvenient in multiple ways if it were. We imagine a multiplier in there to balance the equation, such factor that can completely negate production, using mere anecdotal experiences as proofs.

Maybe that's not scientific, maybe time spent very closely match productivity, and maybe production as well as productivity need external, artificial regulations.

[mschild]

> Every extra second you sit in the (home)office adds to productivity

I'm not sure I believe that. I think at some point the additional hours worked will ultimately decrease the output/unit of time and at some point that you'll reach a peak whereafter every hour worked extra will lead to an overall productivity loss.

Its also something that I think is extremely hard to consistently measure, especially for your typical office worker.

[maigret]

Here you go https://cs.stanford.edu/people/eroberts/cs181/projects/crunc...

[chairmansteve]

Spoken like a guy who's never been to France.

Classic drive by internet trope.

Maybe try a little harder, have an informed opinion about something.

[whiplash451]

> they probably work more hours in America than France

Not sure that's even true. Mistral is known to be a really hard-working place

[gwervc]

I'm pretty sure there is way less regulations in the US in respect to France where going over the legal 35h/week requires additional capital and legal paperwork.

[Saline9515]

In France most white collar jobs are categorized as "management" ("cadre"), and they have no time limit. It is very common for workers to clock 12h days in consultancies (10am-10pm) and in state administrations, for instance.

[algoghostf]

This is not true. Government workers or factory workers can limit to 35h (with some salary loss or days off loss), but else than that (especially in tech) it is very competitive and working 50 hours+/week is not exceptionl.

[kgwgk]

> 50 hours+/week is not exceptionl.

https://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/codes/article_lc/LEGIARTI0000...

Au cours d'une même semaine, la durée maximale hebdomadaire de travail est de quarante-huit heures.

https://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/codes/article_lc/LEGIARTI0000...

La durée hebdomadaire de travail calculée sur une période quelconque de douze semaines consécutives ne peut dépasser quarante-quatre heures, sauf dans les cas prévus aux articles L. 3121-23 à L. 3121-25.

[Saline9515]

Everyone is "forfait cadre", which allow them to work with no practical time limit since they don't log their time spent at work. https://www.service-public.fr/particuliers/vosdroits/F19261

[kgwgk]

It seems that 20% of employees in the private sector are "cadres" and half of them are on "forfait jours". That makes around 10% of the private sector employees working 218 days per year without the 48/44 weekly hour limits. It's more than I thought but I doubt that many of them work more than 10 hours per day. Whether that's "exceptional" or not is a matter of definition, of course.

[greenavocado]

In the USA most software engineers are FLSA-exempt ("computer employee" exemption).

No overtime pay regardless of hours worked.

No legal maximum hours per day/week.

No mandatory rest periods/breaks (federally).

The US approach places the burden on the individual employee to negotiate protections or prove misclassification, while French law places the burden on the employer to comply with strict, state-enforced standards.

The French Labor Code (Code du travail) applies to virtually all employees in France, regardless of sector (private tech company, government agency, non-profit, etc.), unless explicitly exempted. Software engineering is not an exempted profession. Maximum hour limits are absolute. The caps of 44 hours per week, 48 hours average over 12 weeks, and 10/12 hours per day are legal maximums for almost all employees. Tech companies cannot simply ignore them. The requirements for employee consent, strict annual limits (usually max 220 hours/year), premium pay (+25%/+50%), and compensatory rest apply to software engineers just like any other employee.

"Cadre" Status is not an exemption. Many software engineers are classified as Cadres (managers/professionals) but this status does not automatically exempt them from working time rules.

Cadre au forfait jours (Days-Based Framework): This is common for senior engineers/managers. They are exempt from tracking daily/weekly hours but must still have a maximum of 218 work days per year (including weekends, holidays, and RTT days). Their annual workload must not endanger their health. 80-hour weeks would obliterate this rest requirement and pose severe health risks, making it illegal. Employers must monitor their workload and health.

Cadre au forfait heures (Hours-Based Framework) or Non-Cadre: These employees are fully subject to the standard daily/weekly/hourly limits and overtime rules. 80+ hours/week is blatantly illegal.

The tech industry, especially gaming/startups, sometimes tries to import unsustainable "crunch" cultures. This is illegal in France.

EDIT: Fixed work days

[algoghostf]

I think there is theory and there is real life. As tech worker, in 20 years career, in private sector, I have always been on forfait jours, working more than 10h/day on average, during many years weekend included. I never got paid extra hours. So I get what you say about the perception and the law. The French law is protective (i.e if I can prove that in a court I'll get my extra hours paid for sure but my career would end. Period.

[Xmd5a]

>I'll get my extra hours paid for sure but my career would end.

Are you working in an area that is that specific ? I'm French but I'm naive.

[Saline9515]

Some State services, such as the "Trésor", which oversees French economic policies, do not respect this at all, and require 12h work days most of the year. The churn is enormous, workers staying there less than a year on average.

[kgwgk]

> 218 rest days per year (including weekends, holidays, and RTT days)

Wouldn’t that be nice, 218 rest days? It’s 218 working days.

[retinaros]

No one works 35hours in software jobs in france except maybe government. Overtime is also not compensated (they give some days off that is it.)

[psalaun]

Even in government; I've worked 50+ hours weeks working for the healthcare branch of the providence state, with a classic 39h/w contract. No compensation of any sort, despite having timesheets.

There are a lot of myths about French worker. Our lifelong worked hours is not exceptional; our productivity is also not exceptional.

[greenavocado]

Pointless suffering. Report violations to the CSE, Médecin du Travail, and Inspection du Travail.

[psalaun]

It was a choice, I loved my job there. I had more exciting projects than most of my friends in the private sector!

[Saline9515]

Excellent way to get blacklisted and never work for the State again if you're a contractor, or end up in a low impact, boring job if you're a career worker.

[epolanski]

[flagged]

[FirmwareBurner]

>You think that European founders and researchers are like "nah, you know what, we're European, we're not ambitious, we don't want to make money, to hell with equity"?

That's the copium HN thinks. European workers bust their asses for glory not for money.

[tomhow]

We're getting complaints about several of your recent comments, and this is a prime example of the kind of comment that is not right for HN. It takes a swipe at the whole HN community (on the false pretence that the HN audience is concentrated via country/region or mindset), and makes a moral judgement based on region/culture.

We've asked you several times to stop commenting in this inflammatory style on HN. We don't want to ban you, as we want HN to be open to a broad range of views and discussion styles, but if you keep commenting in ways that break the guidelines and draw valid complaints from other community members, a ban will be the next step we'll have to take.

If you want HN to be a good place to engage in interesting discussions, please do your part to make it better not worse.

[FirmwareBurner]

Where do I complain about unfair and double standard moderation practices that are left unmoderated and even praised and upvoted?

See this guy: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44254864

And there's countless like him that get away with it. You'll then argue that there's no resources to moderate everything on HN, which while true, it's also more than sus how there seems to always be enough resources to moderate conservative viewpoints but rarely attacks from liberals that break the same rules, which is a blatant double standard that HN moderation is ignoring.

You talk the talk about HN being to quote you "open to a broad range of views and discussion styles" but what you actually support is a suppression of free speech and a one sided view of things that can only exist in a biased heavily moderated echo chamber, and not in the free market place of ideas you claim to support.

[tomhow]

That comment was posted barely a half hour ago and nobody has flagged it yet. What does it have to with "double standard moderation practices that are left unmoderated and even praised?"

We can't act on things that the community doesn't tell us about. Almost always, when people point to comments that are egregious but still live as evidence that the moderators approve of them, the reality is that we didn't see them. And a major reason for that is that political flamewar is now such a big part the activity on HN that our small team can't ever see all the comments that are flagged.

But please don't try to use other people's transgressions as an excuse for your own. That's an age-old trick that doesn't work well here.

If you are sincere about being a positive contributor to this community, you can easily show that by making an effort to observe the guidelines. You could also make good-faith efforts to hold other community members to high standards by flagging comments, and if you see anything that's particularly egregious, emailing us.

Edit: you added to your comment after I submitted mine, so I'll add a further response.

We don't care about what side you're arguing for. Often we don't know; we don't have time to figure out what each commentator in a flamewar is on about. The topic of bias has been hurled at HN for as long as it's existed. Dan has an ever-growing list of the complaints we get from each side characterising us as being biased towards the other side [1].

We have guidelines for a reason, which is that if people fill their comments with inflammatory rhetoric, the emotional energy that triggers is what dominates people's perception of the discussion, rather than the substance of the points people are trying to get across.

If you have points to make that have substance, and I know that you do, you need to find a way to get them across without being inflammatory, otherwise it's a waste of everyone's time.

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26148870

[FirmwareBurner]

>nobody has flagged it yet[..]We can't act on things that the community doesn't tell us about.

Why do you think that is? Is it not a reflection of the userbase bias? Where comments get flagged not based on rules but based on which political side they are targeting?

>You could also make good-faith efforts to hold other community members to high standards by flagging comments

Doesn't help when others vouch for them to support their ideology.

>We don't care about what side you're arguing for.

You don't, but your userbase does. And your moderation is based on what your userbase flags. So you moderation 100% reflects the bias of the community, hence the biased enforcement of your rules.

Answer me why is my comment here is flagged?

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44240839

[vasco]

Most measures of productivity have "hours worked" in the denominator so that can't be right.

[underdeserver]

If I work 1000 hours and you work 2000 hours in the same timeframe, but you outcompeted me and created 3x value, you are 1.5 times more productive.

There's a numerator too.

[vasco]

How does the same exact person get more productive? You forgot the example I replied to? The only thing that changed were hours worked. In your example you change it to less hours worked with more output. You made it circular.

[underdeserver]

You can be more productive just because you're faster.

Magistral is amazingly impressive compared to ChatGPT 3.5. If it had come out two years ago we'd be saying Mistral is the clear leader. But it came out now.

Not saying they worked fewer hours, just that speed matters, and in some cases, up to a limit, working more hours gets your work done faster.

[retinaros]

Most of french people in engineering jobs in France are working late even tho overtime is never paid.

[Disposal8433]

In the USA they have the famous 9 to 5. Most developers' jobs in France are "9 to 6 with 2 hours to eat in the middle and unpaid overtime," so I would say both countries are equivalent.

[pdabbadabba]

I'm not here to debate which country works harder. Among other things, I'm not at all convinced that it's good for a society for people to be so devoted to their jobs.

But it's worth pointing out that the U.S.'s famous 9-to-5 is completely inapplicable to any sort of high-demand job. For many people in a demanding profession like tech, a 9-to-5 job would be an absolute (and often unattainable) dream. Where I live (Washington, D.C.) people who want a 9-to-5 will generally leave industry altogether and work for the government. (And even there, a true 9-to-5 can be elusive.)

[psalaun]

In parisian startups it's more 9 to 7 with 30 min lunch breaks.