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by saysjonathan 373 days ago
Now I want to see 'Tories' used derisively in modern American politics.
1 comments

Go ahead.

In the UK there’s regular Tories (Conservative Party), red Tories (Labour Party under Blair or Starmer), tartan Tories (SNP), etc.

In the US it seems like you only have red and blue Tories.

Actually there's a massive difference between Democrats and Republicans in the US, and that difference matters a lot
Under the lenses of a duopoly, American politics seems like a well oiled machine, oiled by the tears of the constituency, but they are working together. The orange tumor seems to be a new thing that for some reason smells like fundamentalist state.
Is there? They seem only distinguishable aesthetically to me.

They’re much closer to each other than UK’s Tories and Labour, for sure.

There are a lot of similarities when it comes to their tendency towards Corporatocracy and military spending, but it largely ends there.

When it comes to taxes, fiscal priorities, rights for individuals, foreign policy, crime and punishment, and of course social issues they are very different and in most cases take the opposite approach.

For example, Republicans want lower taxes for the wealthy while Democrats want lower taxes for the lower and middle classes. Republicans want to restrict individuals rights - especially for non-christian white males, Democrats don't. Republicans favor heavy handed punishment including capital punishment, Democrats favor rehabilitation and a ban on capital punishment. Republicans want to blow up the national debt through tax breaks and pork, Democrats want to control the debt through responsible spending and investments. Republicans want to stop investment in education and science while Democrats want to increase investment in these areas. These are all very real and not just aesthetics.

> Republicans want to restrict individuals rights

This is a curious comment. HackerNews has always told me it was in fact the opposite - it's easy enough to source quotes from over the years. Could this forum have been wrong all this time?

The proper answer is that both Republicans and Democrats seek to restrict the others' individual and group rights, whenever possible.

Freedom2 says>"Could this forum have been wrong all this time?"<

Surely you jest, Sir! My hat is off to you!8-))

Democratic voters want those things. It's not at all obvious the party establishment does.

The tell is that when Republicans push through their policies, Democratic opposition is weak and ineffectual. Instead of ferocious opposition the Dems send one of their famous sternly worded letters.

Since at least 2000 the party establishment has absolutely refused to do any of the things it could do to change this - including packing the Supreme Court, supporting and promoting grass roots activism between elections, using the filibuster, and so on.

Biden couldn't even get any of Trump's prosecutions over the line - including televised evidence of insurrection, and treasonous mishandling of official state secrets (!)

However it's spun, there is a very obvious reluctance to challenge the extremes of Republicanism.

The party is far more likely to censure one of its non-centrists than its centrists, while the opposite is true of the Republicans.

The Democrats operate as if they're controlled opposition. It's like their donors pay them to blunt their base. They haven't accomplished anything legislatively this century beyond pass the 1993 Republican healthcare plan under Obama's name. They couldn't even raise the minimum wage.
In my experience this is dead on. People have short attention spans but this has been happning the whole 21st century. In 2008 Obama won the primary despite the best efforts of leadership to nominate clinton. They even scrambled the "super delegates" (delegates who vote for the candidate chosen by senior leadership) hoping that even if Obama won more delegates, they could override the voters choice.

Of course, they failed, and democrats won 2 elections in a row running a candidate labeled a radical socialist. Obama became the only 21st century president to win the poplar vote twice, and the DNC has been trying to drag the party back in the 20th century ever since, blaming their own voters when it doesn't work.

It boggles my mind that they refused to even engage with the "undecided movement", which created a grass-roots get out to vote movement out of thin air. In swing states no less.

The starkest contrast between the two parties is womens rights and to a lesser extent LGBTQ rights. Although I'm not even sure how true this is anymore with so many politicians backing Cuomo, who resigned because an investigation found overwhelming evidence he sexually harrassed and assaulted female employees. And I'm pretty sure people like Chuck Schumer and other centrists view the LGBTQ community as a liability.

> They seem only distinguishable aesthetically to me.

This is likely to depend heavily on what positions you care strongly about.

They're much, MUCH further apart than any two UK parties, or any two parties from any other English speaking country.
Not as much as you'd think. It's remarkable how similar their tactics and rhetoric are.
Yeah, no. The Overton window is so incredibly small in America that normal, run of the mill political positions - either left or right - in the rest of the world are deemed extremist and radical in America.

Your Corporate media is the problem.

Things have been far more polarised since the rise of social media. You can blame fox news and cnn or whatever all you want, but given how far the US is from the days of Clinton, Reagan, Nixon, Kennedy etc I don't see how you can simply blame "corporate media".
Corporate media used to have regulations on how much local media any single company could own. I think the consolidation of media ownership made it easier to have a single corporate vision.
The Smith-Mundt Modernization Act of 2012 has something to do with it.

Also, a lot of what has happened goes back to the Church Committee and the fact that no meaningful reforms were made after that.

Social media is the new corporate media.
Both are true. The end of the Fairness Doctrine normalised the psychotic distortions and lies pumped out by Fox. But the same machine that uses Fox also runs bot farms, astroturfing operations, and curated social media algorithms to normalise even more extreme RW POVs.

And here we are.

The problem is not the people taking advantage of a vulnerability, but the vulnerability itself. That such a significant portion of the US population is so gullible and so ready to believe misinformation that aligns with their desires is the real issue.
The problem is not media, at least not primarily. The problem is an ancient and not-democratic first past the post system, preventing emergence of any alternative, good or bad.
I agree with your sentiment, but Canada uses FPTP and as much as I would love to move to a proportional system, our politics is significantly less limiting than yours. Both of your major parties, and all of your corporate media are so captured by billionaires you don't even know how bad things are in your country without an external frame of reference.
On the other hand, both American parties are radical compared to the rest of the world on human rights issues such as free speech
Really? Is your speech freer than mine in Canada? Are your human Rights protected better than mine? I wonder what the rioters in LA would have to say about that?
You are a country that suspended bank accounts while your legal citizens were staging a protest at your capitol.

The LA riots involve property destruction and interference with criminal removal.

Those who are protesting peacefully and are here legally are free to continue. Some areas may be off limits while crimes are stopped.

Not the same at all.

The US is notably "freer" for some types of speech. Quite a few countries ban Nazi flags, hate speech, etc. to some extent. The EU bans direct-to-consumer marketing of prescription drugs. The UK banned political parties from advertising on TV in 1955.

In my opinion, doing so to some extent is important to preserve the rights of other parts of society, but that's not a universally held opinion by any means.

Pretty sure the Murdochs are 'Strayan.