[throw_a_grenade]

Stuff that we consider abnormal (homelessness, migration/seeking asylum, etc.) is at some point personal decision („I'm going to try to move to the next country, whatever it takes”), even if usually are not perceived as real choices, e.g. when the alternative is a lack of food or to sustain persecution. But a decision nonetheless, and one that will be taken by resourceful people, those who can spend a night or a fortnight in a tent.

If you know how to survive in a forest, you're a good candidate for a homeless or a migrant. Such decision point might be closer than you think.

[yusina]

Calling it a "choice" to seek asylum in another country because of war or threat of death in someone's home country for e.g. sexual orientation reasons is beyond cynical and cruel.

I truly hope you will never be in such a situation and then meeting somebody telling you that you are a refugee because of a choice you made.

[kortilla]

Seeking asylum is absolutely a choice. Both in choosing to leave the country and where you choose to go.

[yusina]

The step from "it's a choice" to "it's your fault" is very small. There is a whole industry of populists thriving on the lack of distinguishing between these two.

Tech people often miss the social connotations such terms bring with them. Understandable, as many got into tech because of its clear definitions and lack of ambiguity and baggage, but the real world just doesn't work that way, and we have to acknowledge this.

[throw_a_grenade]

This is HN, not fediverse, I thougt we can have a discussion that would involve making a distinction on this nuance (choice vs decision vs responsibility vs fault), instead on casting general aspersions, as is the case in other social media.

[throw_a_grenade]

Not my choice, but my decision. It's not a question of responsibility of the a priori situation, but the moment that I snap and decide I can't take it any more. I need to do something. And not doing something is also a decision.

I helped a bit as a volunteer in an orga that among other things worked with refugees and I heard their stories. Every single one had this moment that one day they have risen and took ownership of their lives, instead of succumbing to helplessness. If they didn't, they probably wouldn't make it. That is something to admire.

One thing migrants and homeless need is to recognise they're humans that are disposed to make decisions about themselves, by themselves. To deny that is cruel, because it's inhumane. Humans can make decisions, non-humans can not. I don't know how it is on other side of the pond, but over here in Europe there's a big campaign to portray refugees (and all migrants) as non- (or sub-) humans, and denying them agency is part of that effort.

[yusina]

Right. And just as little as a refugee can decide their way out of the situation that their home country is in chaos and war, a homeless person rarely can decide their way out of poverty. The latter may have made choices earlier in life that contributed to their situation, but just claiming "well it's their choice that they are homeless" is not doing justice to the situation out there. Unless of course the situation is a choice, like for Elon Musk. At any point he could move into a permanent home wherever. It's absurd to use the same term for his situation as for an average person living under a bridge in SF.

[throw_a_grenade]

I don't know SF homeless, but if you'd come ove here, you'd be surprised. Some of the refugees I met were “normal people” in their previous years, smart, well educated, well paid, resourceful. Some of them were much, much richer than me. That's simply because the poor in their country lack the means to even start the journey. They are those who have no choice but to rot to death (sometimes literally, sometimes figuratively). But not those who chose to leave the circumstances.

I'm not sure about the exact context of the language you quoted(not a native speaker), but ISTM you mean “well it's their choice that they are homeless” as somehow demeaning. Is it used in your country as a rhetorical device to imply that a person could have just chosen not to be poor (or persecuted), and then as an excuse not to help someone in need? That's very wrong and not matching reality I saw. Usually the choice was to either flee or something even worse happens to him/her (or the family).