[lentoutcry]

it's so surreal to me how this is happening under our eyes and nobody's stopping it. the impact this will have on our health is so staggering. and what's worse, even if these cuts were reversed tomorrow, it would still take quite some time to reverse the negative effects

[bediger4000]

There will be follow-on effects, too. Like "wellness" ending up on the same tier as "medicine". Without the research, who's to say? This will also compound the Qanon fascination with "medical freedom", where the patient gets to dictate to the doctor what to do (i.e. use ivermectin against COVID, or whatever other superstition rises to the top of the Qanon imagination cauldron).

[lentoutcry]

yep. I don't wanna be in the shoes of the doctors who'll have to deal with this. although I suspect a part of them will resign, leading to even more "fun" downstream effects

[sorokod]

A TIL, Medical freedom.

Very likely those opinions will be shaped by social media and LLMs steering in turn public health policies, plugging into politics and back to start.

A neat vertically integrated system.

[mystraline]

> This will also compound the Qanon fascination with "medical freedom", where the patient gets to dictate to the doctor what to do (i.e. use ivermectin against COVID, or whatever other superstition rises to the top of the Qanon imagination cauldron).

That's very double-edged.

The open question is should humans have the right to take substances individually?

Sure, you get Ivermectin/covid deniers. But you also get homemade Solvaldi (cure for Hepatitis C). I can make it for $300 for the 12 week course, and it retail costs $84000

Of course, even making and taking this drug you manufacture is illegal, even aside patent bullshit.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42538903

But why shouldn't I be able to treat myself? Why do we accept really shitty gatekeepers (medical establishment, doctors) gatekeep treatments and cures from us?

And more currently, now that der fuhrer quit the emergency use allocation for Covid shots, now you need a doctors scrip for 'allowing to get a vaccine'. I should be able to get this if I pay for it. But nope, now need to pay for needless doctor payment and more barriers.

So at least in that side, I'm on Qanon's view that I should be able to personally treat myself with whatever substance I deem. Of course, I'll definitely heed a doctor's suggestion as an expert. But fuck.. My body, my choice.

[Vilian]

>I can make it for $300 for the 12 week course, and it retail costs $84000

A problem that only exist in USA, you could follow literally any other country and you wouldn't get the same problem, and no other country avoided that issue but letting dumb people take dumb things that they heard in the internet

[os2warpman]

> Of course, even making and taking this drug you manufacture is illegal

This is not true.

In the United States GENERALLY SPEAKING you can manufacture any substance that is not on the list of controlled substances on the CSA Schedule.

You cannot sell it or administer it to others.

Also IN GENERAL you can consume any substance that is not illegal to possess or manufacture.

In the non-pharmaceutical realm there are a few additional restrictions, like ethanol (which you can manufacture for industrial use but not human consumption) and various nuclear, biological, and chemical munition components. (Don't know how many people are ingesting those)

If you have the ability, you can manufacture your own sofosbuvir and ingest it.

You cannot sell or give it to anyone else.

[sorokod]

> But why shouldn't I be able to treat myself?

Consider this analogy: you should be allowed to put a gun to your own head and pull the trigger. You should not be allowed to put on a suicide vest and blow yourself up in a group of people.

[mystraline]

To the first, yes, I do believe that we humans SHOULD have a right to commit suicide. It should be a right to end your own life.

We have a 'right' drink a handle of whiskey a day, up to the point we get liver disease. Same with smoking 3 packs a day of cigarettes. Same with horrendous diet. But those ways of killing yourself are "acceptable" and also legal. But they're slower.

The second, you're harming other people. That example is blatantly ridiculous, and appears just to gain an emotional response by invoking terrorism.

[sorokod]

"you're harming other people", yes as in the case where you are contagious.

[bigbadfeline]

> "you're harming other people", yes as in the case where you are contagious.

Have you watched a movie lately? Talk about contagious violence. I can tell you this, your fate is just a blip on the back side of other people's large screen TV where the movies are shown.

[Spivak]

I go further and say that you should be able to buy any drug from the pharmacy without a prescription*. As well as testing kits. Having to have an ongoing relationship with a doctor just to refill your medication or get antibiotics when you get strep is a huge waste of everyone's time and money. And there are countries where you can already do this and they haven't collapsed. It makes the job of pharmacist actually matter as someone other than a pill counter.

It ends so many stupid discussions we have in the US. Can this medication be prescribed for an off-label use? Who cares because you can just buy it. Do you meet some arbitrary federal weight guideline for Ozempic? Who cares you can just buy it.

* every rule has exceptions, don't get bogged down with them.

[MandieD]

Two words that explain why it hurts everyone else when you can go buy antibiotics whenever you want (you think you have strep):

Antibiotic Resistance.

Longer explanation: how do you know exactly which bacteria you’re infected with, and which antibiotics will work well against them, and which ones they’ll throw a middle finger at? Even if you have the exact same symptoms as the last time, how do you know that taking the same antibiotic will work just as well, and won’t just further select for bacteria it has no effect on?

[Spivak]

My apologies, I'm using strep in the layman's terms meaning any bacterial sinusitis.

This is great and all but it ignores that getting an antibiotic prescription is not difficult at all. I literally just get in a video call, describe the symptoms of strep, and they write me a prescription. It's less expensive to treat than to test. In 15 years I've never had a doctor actually test me for what bacteria I actually have. They sometimes do the bare minimum of looking at it to be pretty confident it's bacterial but that's about it.

However stupid you think the general populace is, doctors count themselves among their numbers. Your average urgent care or primary care doc is just going to give the same broad spectrum antibiotics without any real thought. Except for the one bona-fide MD who looked at my very obvious case of strep, knowing from my chart that I have chronic bacterial sinusitis, and me telling them as much, looking at my puss filled tonsils and concluding that it's allergies and that I should take Claritin. Never go to urgent care man.

[LorenPechtel]

This.

I believe all recreational drugs should either be legal or else available by prescription with the explicit statement in the law that addiction management is a valid reason for a prescription. None of the controlled substances hoops. And I think *renewing* maintenance meds should be within the realm of the pharmacist.

But I think all agents for which resistance is a factor should be doctor only.

[bediger4000]

If use of a drug had no, or very little externalities, id agree. Overuse of antibiotics creates resistant bacteria, endangering everyone. I am forced to disagree civilly, sir.

[mystraline]

A large portion of antibiotic resistance comes from patients taking a partial prescription, feeling better, and discontinuing the rest of the pills.

In that situation (the only one at this time), is the majority of resistances are made.

Controlling the supply, especially if you know you have a bacterial disease, can be solved readily.

In fact, on a camping trip, I was bit by 15 ticks. Was bad. When I got back to civilization, I started getting spots all over my body. Surprise, it was rocky mountain spotted fever. But if I could determine the 2 drugs for curing spotted fever and Lyme, I absolutely would have did both. But the shitty gatekeeper (doctor) wouldn't do Lyme course. Again, logically made a lot of sense, especially that Lyme tests are 60% accurate. And, 15 ticks.

[bediger4000]

You're not really saying that the populous would finish more courses of over-the-counter antibiotics, are you? Prescriptionless antibiotics would almost axiomatically make that worse.

[add-sub-mul-div]

Combatting medical Dunning-Kruger should be within the scope of public health.

[mystraline]

What happens when your benign dictator (FDA), turns not so benign?

Like, covid shots. Now you need to beg a doctor to get them. Hope you pass their gatekeeping test.

Or now women are being arrested and charged with murder for miscarriages and missing periods.

And there's another round of "get rid of ACA, which includes banning non-coverage of preexisting conditions. Treating yourself is a strong protection of not being covered.

RFK is going through medical records across the country for anybody with autism, ADD, and ADHD. What and how are these lists being used for? (I know how the German nazies used them...)

My body, my choice.

[bediger4000]

We as a society spent the last 3-4 years kneecapping public health laws and authorities. There have been numerous state level rollbacks of authority, did that public health officials don't have the authority to impose mask mandates, or advise social distancing.