[gitaarik]

So to clarify, it could potentially come up with (something close to) C, but if you want it to get to D, E, F etc, it will become less and less accurate for each consequentive step, because it lacks the human curated reward models up to that point. Only if you create new reward models for C, the output for D will improve, and so on.

[JoshCole]

> Only if you create new reward models for C, the output for D will improve, and so on.

Again, tons of false claims. One is that 'you' have to create the reward model. Another that it has to be human-curated at all. Yet another is that you even need to do that at all: you can instead have the model build a bigger model of itself, train using its existing resources or more of them, then synthesize itself back down. Another way you can get around it is to augment the existing dataset in some way. No other changes except resource usage and yet the resulting model will be better, because more resources went into its construction.

Seriously notice: you keep making false claims again and again and again and again and again. You're not stating true things. You really need to reflect. If almost every sentence you speak on this topic is false, why is it that you think you should be able to persuade me to your views? Why should I believe your views, when you say so many things that are factually inaccurate, rather than my own views?

[gitaarik]

Ok, so you claim that LLMs can get smarter without human validation. So why do they hallucinate at all? And why are all reward models currently curated by humans? Or are you claiming they aren't?

[JoshCole]

I don't find it reasonable that you didn't understand my corrections, because current AI already do. So I'm exiting the conversation.

https://chatgpt.com/share/683a3c88-62a8-8008-92ef-df16ce2e8a...

[gitaarik]

Ok, this is interesting indeed and I'll investigate more into it. But I think my points still stand. Let me elaborate.

An LLM only learns through input text. It doesn't have a first-person 3D experience of the world. So it can't execute physical experiments, or even understand them. It can understand the texts about it, but it can't visualize it, because it doesn't have a visual experience.

And ultimately our physical world is governed by physical processes. So at the fundamentals of physical reality, the LLMs lack understanding. And therefore will stay dependent on humans educating and correcting it.

You might get pretty impressively far with all kinds of techniques, but you can't cross this barrier with just LLMs. If you want to, you have to give it senses like humans to give it an experience of the world, and make it understand these experiences. And sure they're already working on that, but that is a lot harder to create than a comprehensive machine learning algorithm.

[JoshCole]

You're doing this thing again where you say tons of things that aren't true.

> An LLM only learns through input text.

This is false. There already exist LLM which understand more than just text. Relevant search term: multi-modality.

> It doesn't have a first-person 3D experience of the world.

Again false. It is trivial to create such an experience with multi-modality. Just set up an input device which streams that.

> So it can't execute physical experiments, or even understand them.

Here you get confused again. It doesn't follow, based on perceptual modality, that someone can't do or understand experiments. Hellen Keller can be both blind, but also do an experiment.

Beyond just being confused, you also make another false claim. Current LLMs already have the capacity to run experiments and do so. Search terms: tool usage, ReAct loop, AI agents.

> It can understand the texts about it, but it can't visualize it, because it doesn't have a visual experience.

Again, false!

Multi-modal LLMs currently possess the ability to generate images.

> And ultimately our physical world is governed by physical processes. So at the fundamentals of physical reality, the LLMs lack understanding. And therefore will stay dependent on humans educating and correcting it.

Again false. The same sort of reasoning would claim that Hellen Keller couldn't read a book, but braille exists. The ability to acquire information outside an umwelt is a capability that intelligence enables.

[gitaarik]

You come up with very interesting points, and I'm thankful for that. But I also think you're missing the crux or my message. LLMs don't experience the world the same way humans do. And they also don't think in the same way. So you can train them very far with enough input data, but there will always be a limit of what they can understand compared to a human. If you want them to think and experience the world in the same way, you basically have to create a complete human.

My example about the visualization was just an example to prove a point. What I ultimately mean is the whole complete human experience. And besides, if you give it eyes, what data are you gonna train it on? Most videos on the internet are filmed with one lens, which doesn't give you a 3D visual. So you would have to train it like a baby growing up, trial on error. And then again we're talking only about the visual.

Hellen Keller wasn't born blind, so she did have a chance to develop her visual brain functions. Most people can visualize things with their eyes closed.