[saubeidl]

Do you think that was the lifestyle in Yugoslavia? And their heyday was half a century ago at this point. You're presenting a false dichotomy. Nobody's gonna live in a mud hut using a spinning wheel just because workers run companies.

[Ray20]

>Nobody's gonna live in a mud hut using a spinning wheel just because workers run companies.

That exactly what will happen. In the best case, if you lacky enough, you will be live in a mud hut. The rest will envy those who can afford to live in a mud hut.

Workers can start running companies at any time, no one restricts them from running their companies. The only reason they don't do this is that this will be worse for workers.

So you are being hypocritical. You don't want workers to run companies (they can do that now), you want workers to have no alternative.

[saubeidl]

[flagged]

[nradov]

When a "problem" has no solution then it's not actually a problem, just a fact to be accepted. Like gravity. There's nothing wrong with worker owned cooperatives, but for anything that requires significant capital you have to run things the way that capital owners want. And large-scale economic central planning where governments allocate capital has been an abject failure everywhere it has been tried, so don't insult our intelligence by suggesting that we give it another shot.

[saubeidl]

What you're proposing, my friend, is called ideological blindness.

[nradov]

What are you proposing? I mean in terms of stuff that's actually feasible in the real world of today, not empty fantasies.

[saubeidl]

I believe that what is feasible in the real world changes over time, it is a matter of building momentum and challenging the status quo.

Nobody would've thought the rise of MAGA in the US was gonna be feasible two decades ago.

Maintaining ideological blinders for what is feasible is how entrenched interests prevent systemic change.

[Ray20]

>they lack the capital

This is absolutely not true. In absolute numbers, the cost of starting a business is quite low, and workers have a lot of money, much more than their employers. And if workers collectively stop spending their salaries on unnecessary things, and instead organize a fund - on average, in 2 years they will have enough money to buy out the entire company they work for, or organize a comparable one.

There are no problems with capitalism, capitalism just allows you not to do all of this, not to suffer 2 years of poverty for the sake of living in a mud hut (if you're lucky enough).

[trinix912]

You’re roughly describing the whole point of Yugoslavia’s workers’ self-management. This is in contrast to what the Eastern Bloc had with the government establishing and running the factories directly. Also in contrast to the capitalist system where someone with enough capital establishes and runs the factory themselves while employing the workers.

And no, you didn’t have to live in a mud hut for it. In fact, it was more affordable for the regular worker to build a house than it is now. Those houses were/are comparable to what you see in Germany today. Go check out the real estate market in Slovenia if you don’t believe me, look for houses built 1950-1990.

[WalterBright]

Why did 20 million people over the last 4 years sneak into America? How many Americans left for Yugoslavia?

[dttze]

Ah yes, taking the last 4 years post pandemic, in the midst of massive climate change, and in a near world war and then comparing it to 60+ years ago in the height of the Cold War and US global dominance.

You should change your name to Walter Dim.

[trinix912]

That and the fact he’s taking the statistics of the last 4 years when all countries of the former Yugoslavia were capitalist, ironically.

[saubeidl]

How many Yugoslavs left for America?

[WalterBright]

Google says: "Between 1950 and 1989, approximately 73,000 people immigrated to the United States from Yugoslavia"

I couldn't find any statistics of Americans leaving for Yugoslavia.

[carlosjobim]

Were they allowed to leave?

Usually the sign of the fairest and most humane systems of government and economy is when people get shot in the back by border guards if they try to escape.

[nradov]

Generally yes. Unlike Soviet occupied Eastern Europe, most regular people in Yugoslavia were able to obtain passports and travel internationally. There were some people barred from leaving or held as political prisoners.

[saubeidl]

Yes. The Yugoslav passport was the strongest in the world at the time - the only one you could freely travel both West and East with.

[selimthegrim]

Ever been to Cleveland or Pittsburgh or Chicago or Long Beach?