[libraryofbabel]

> from my point of view, warning the up and coming youngin’s off the self taught path is a disservice.

Hard disagree on this. It’s true there are a lot of successful people in the industry with no degree, or (like myself) with a non-CS degree. And I agree with you that the OP’s claim that there’s a ceiling for those people is overstated. But just because it was possible to have a successful start in the industry 10 or 20 years ago that way doesn’t mean it’s good advice now to tell 18 year olds that skipping the degree and self studying is a good idea. The job market is exceptionally tough currently for entry level engineers and not likely to get better, due to the end of ZIRP and AI productivity gains. Companies who have that rare entry-level position open can take their pick from a large pool of candidates. They will naturally prioritize people with a CS degree from a top school because without previous work experience that is the best signal they have to sort the deluge of resumes.

I still think software engineering is a good career choice for a smart kid, but it’s not the magic ride to prosperity it was 10 years ago. I would hesitate now to recommend any path into it except the top-school CS degree route. Sure, there will be exceptions, but you will have a vastly easier time if you follow that path.

[mekoka]

> I would hesitate now to recommend any path into it except the top-school CS degree route. Sure, there will be exceptions, but you will have a vastly easier time if you follow that path.

And how is this useful to someone who can't get into these top schools because life is happening? Also, your outlook seems very unrealistic to me.

This is software development we're talking about, not medicine, not mechanical engineering. To be a top tier software developer, you need access to a decent computer and good resources to learn. The two boxes have never been easier to check. Add to that the excellent guidance of curricula like OSSU, TeachYourselfCS, and others like them, if you have the mind for it and a bit of discipline, your skills will be as sharp as any top school graduate's. "Self-taught" today isn't the same game as what it was 20 years ago. You can make yourself incredibly valuable on your own.

Now, getting a degree in CS and teaching yourself CS are different goals. The first is a pursuit of recognition for a skill that you may or may not have, and along the way, perhaps you've obtained a truly valuable education for which you're also grateful. The latter is a self-directed pure pursuit of knowledge, understanding, and skill. Regardless of your path, these are the real gems companies are after, and if you truly have them, you will NOT be invisible in this domain. They're rare commodities in the real world, regardless of how you get there.

Getting hired in software has always been about showing that you can build software. There's no danger of this changing. Sure, it may mean different things to different companies, but that's always what it's been about. Some want people that can crack algo problems, some want hackers, some want makers with a portfolio, some want tech wizards that understand the stack up and down. No matter, you can opt in to any of the above outside of academia and make a space for yourself.

[romec]

> And how is this useful to someone who can't get into these top schools because life is happening? Also, your outlook seems very unrealistic to me.

If you can't go to school because of life, chances are you can't self-study because of life as self-studying is harder.

> This is software development we're talking about, not medicine, not mechanical engineering.

Software development in many ways has more competition than those fields that have entry level positions in more rural areas.

> To be a top tier software developer, you need access to a decent computer and good resources to learn.

No, not to be a top tier software developer.

> Add to that the excellent guidance of curricula like OSSU, TeachYourselfCS, and others like them,

Someone who want to become a software developer shouldn't prioritize studying CS.

> if you have the mind for it and a bit of discipline, your skills will be as sharp as any top school graduate's

It will be many times as hard reaching that level yourself.

> Regardless of your path, these are the real gems companies are after, and if you truly have them, you will NOT be invisible in this domain.

Little to no indication that this is true. More like companies might still hire someone they need if they pass all the recruiters and tests favouring the traditional path.

> Getting hired in software has always been about showing that you can build software.

Always has been a academic, military and business field. That is why hackers happened in the first place.

Since we are at HN, you can look at YC.

https://www.ycombinator.com/people

Almost every partner and the founders have an elite or close to elite education. Something only around 1% of the population have, yet they make up all of the people. That is in an untraditional firm which literally runs Hacker News.

But let's say I'm wrong. No harm, no foul. Just go self-study then. Should be easy with that $432 lifestyle. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44074340

[zer00eyz]

> due to the end of ZIRP and AI productivity gains.

I think you're missing the mark with this analysis.

If you go back to the original dot com bubble it was as much of a hardware bubble as a software one. Same thing with the mobile bubble. The AI bubble we are in has NOTHING to do with productivity and everything to do with hardware. I, as a software engineer am not going to come up with a product that can compete with any of the major players without a massive capital investment.

Meanwhile, the price to play as a software engineer is also driven by high costs. AWS, for better or worse is the model and the go to, and it is NOT cheap by any measure. Its pricing model looks more like the iPhone and less like an efficient market. AWS is MOST of amazons profit margins. It makes tech companies more like franchisee renting the location for their fast food joint and less like independent entities.

The thing is there are TONS of gaps in the software marketplace that need filled. These are companies that are going to be in the 2-3 million a year range and capable of being run by a small team (think ~5 people). Nothing that would appeal to the ycombinator set. You don't need Kubernetes, Kafka, or high performance bleeding edge Rust or massive Autoscaling to run these services. They are never going to get huge, and in fact they offer enough room to start another company of the same scale if one is ambitious and wants to diversify.

Does your average 18 year old know this? No, because most people who write code for a living don't seem to know where these gaps are. Do the math on what it takes to make 100k a year at 10 bucks a month... add a zero for a million, multiply by 3 for "small team"... The number is shockingly small.

Does your average 19 year old have the chops to figure this out? No, because 20 and 30 something laid off software engineers can't seem to figure it out either, even ones with "top degrees".

That doesn't mean that there isn't a path for the sharp young kid to "skip school" and go directly into industry. That path is open source. A history of strong contributions and being smart is going to build a better network than any CS degree ever would/will... However if you can do both, open source and a degree (from anyplace) you're even better off! The same could be said for working at Fedex, Walmart or Costco while you get a cs degree from anyplace and seeking a job in a corporate office after. You have a set of experiences that make you invaluable as a contributor.

Lastly, no one talks about the bad guys. There are plenty of scammers and thieves abusing technical skills who lack formal education and do well for themselves. If we're going to remove all the options and only have a narrow path, will we end up with more criminals and fewer contributors? This is sort of why "Russian hackers" is one of the givens in the industry (crime did/does pay well).

I still think software engineering is a good career choice for a smart kid, but you have to bring more to the table than just code if you want to prosper!

[reactordev]

>It makes tech companies more like franchisee renting the location for their fast food joint and less like independent entities.

AWS, the strip mall of the internet. I’ve been saying this for a while. AWS is nice and all but don’t bet your innovation on a service they provide, rather provide a service on their infrastructure that solves your business needs and if AWS retires the service you were using, you can still continue operating.

Unfortunately this means all roads lead to kubernetes - sorry.