[phao]

There is a hate against Java, also against C#, C++, PHP (which I hate), C, and pretty much any other mainstream language.

Notice, though, that competent people have done great jobs using these languages. So you have some choices. Two of them are: wonder why people bash Java or go do something useful with it. I suggest you do the second.

The key to using programming languages is in trying to use the one which will help you the most, or get in your way the least. Sort of "the right tool for the job". Idk what jobs java is good at. If you found out that it's good for your project, then use it.

Take a look a this article: http://prog21.dadgum.com/143.html

[tikhonj]

Just because you can do something with a language does not mean you should. Sure, lots of people make stuff with poorer languages. Lots of people also never write tests, skimp on documentation and copy and paste half their code. It works for them! The best choice would be to think about the problems people have with Java and find a good solution for them (e.g. Scala).

People use all sorts of distinctly sub-optimal tools and technologies for various reasons unrelated to those technologies' merits. One of the biggest reasons is familiarity--many people do not like learning radically new things and so stick to what they know. Popularity does not imbue any sort of quality to programming languages any more than it does to anything else like music. There's a reason that trained musicians respect classical music--even if they're making pop--and there's a reason programming language people respect ML.

In short: just because many people manage to use Java does not mean it is in any sense optimal or even good.

Also, I think the oft-repeated "right tool for the right job" bromide about programming languages is deeply flawed. Programming languages overlap far more than most tools--they are all general-purpose programming languages, after all. The difference between a hammer and a screwdriver is far greater than even the difference between Java and Haskell. Choosing a programming language is more like choosing the best power drill--they overlap almost completely and can do the same jobs. It's quite plausible that some are almost always better than others, but that you could ultimately do the job with either. It will just be more difficult with one than the other.

Also, even if languages did differ significantly, there is no guarantee that any particular language has anything it's best at--it can be strictly worse than other languages for every conceivable use.

Finally, I think that surrendering to familiarity and choosing something you know over something you need to learn is rarely a good choice. Sure, if you have a hard deadline, it might be a reasonable compromise. But learning a language is essentially a constant expense where its affect on your productivity is linear to how much you program. Just because it might take more effort to get started with Scala does not mean you should immediately consign yourself to the drag on productivity that is Java.

You should be learning something new all the time, and programming languages are some of the most important things to learn in CS--they affect not only what you write but how you think. So strive to find the best one you can rather than settling for something that works--in this day and age, expecting your language to be somewhat usable is too low a bar to set.

[phao]

> In short: just because many people manage to use Java does not mean it is in any sense optimal or even good.

Nobody is saying the contrary. I suggested him one of the many options he has (from which I mentioned 2), which is using java. And said that using java is better than going around looking for why people bash java. Which happens to be true.

Consider how he would choose a better language though.

It's surprising how cumbersome it may get to write a simple loop in a more "elaborate" language.

> Also, I think the oft-repeated "right tool for the right job" bromide about programming languages is deeply flawed. Programming languages overlap far more than most tools--they are all general-purpose programming languages, after all. The difference between a hammer and a screwdriver is far greater than even the difference between Java and Haskell. Choosing a programming language is more like choosing the best power drill--they overlap almost completely and can do the same jobs. It's quite plausible that some are almost always better than others, but that you could ultimately do the job with either. It will just be more difficult with one than the other.

There is more to choosing a language than "the language". Here are some reasons why he may wanna use java:

1) He has books about java, but not about anything else.

2) His co-workers use java.

3) He needs to work with the JVM.

4) He really wants to use java.

5) He has a bunch of minor reasons to use java.

6) Libraries, Libraries, Libraries.

7) Development tools.

8) Good implementations.

9) There is a standard for the language.

10) There is a huge community around the language.

11) He doesns't really have a choice. His boss wants him to use java.

12) He's in academia and most people in his institute uses java.

(there are more!)

The "right tool for the job" sure is true. And very much true. It is complicated to select it though. That's why I didn't try to tell him HOW to select that tool. I really think he'll be better off with java if he saw java is good enough (another point is that a "known good enough" is usually better than a "unknown perfect").

We choose "a language" but rarely because of "the language". As you said yourself, a lot of times, these languages are general purpose languages and overlap a lot.

Have you ever noticed that a lot of the languages used today are really tied up to their implementations/running systems? C and UNIX, Java and JVM, C# and CLR, Python and CPython, PHP, Ruby, Objective-C (this one is a really good example), JavaScript, etc. This was true in the past too, think of delphi, vb6 and windows, lisp and the lisp machines, fortran and cobol and the IBM systems.

A lot of what was "language design" in the past, is libraries and implementation design today. Choosing a language is more than looking at "the language", its syntax, semantics, idioms, patterns, etc.

Some other important stuff. Like building a GUI is important, communicating over a network, accessing files, dealing with the data base, doing graphics programming. You can either use, for example, c# and have lots of these from .Net CLR with little effort, or pick OCaml, for example, and have it, but having to do a lot of work that you'd not have to do in c#. Even if you port OCaml to run on the CLR, it's unlikely to be as much CLR friendly than C#.

But, also, there are "local" reasons to choosing a language. These are stuff you or I don't know because it's specific to him or his group of people.

> You should be learning something new all the time, and programming languages are some of the most important things to learn in CS--they affect not only what you write but how you think. So strive to find the best one you can rather than settling for something that works--in this day and age, expecting your language to be somewhat usable is too low a bar to set.

Learning new stuff is good advice, generally. But programming languages are one of the most irrelevant things in CS. In the long run, they are irrelevant.

"We" already teach/learn a lot of programming concepts and techniques without specific programming languages, but with concepts shared by a class of programming languages (as you even said it, lots of them overlap). Concepts and techniques that, in the past, were highly specific of particular programming languages.

Languages get obsolete. Those which remain do so usually because of practical matters (like C, or Java, or C++).

The idea, sometimes new, a programming language may bring is important though. The language itself is not. For example, closures are really catching on now, but it was invented much in the past, and first implemented in languages that people do not use much (I guess it was scheme, but I am not asserting it)

And, so I can end this reply...

I'm sorry for arrogance, but you should not lose the ability to separate interesting from the practical, which I got the impression you cannot do very well. Some things are both (I guess haskell is one of these), but it's not usually the case.

What some people (fortunately, it doesn't seem that it's most of them) don't understand is that lots of programming do not require the sort of elaborate constructs and idioms that, for example, scheme allows you to use. I once talked to a guy who did lots of "business" software. I mentioned scheme to him. Told him lots of cool stuff about recursion, clojures and macros, told him a little about lambda calculus; showing how you could do it in scheme. And he told me "It's cool, but it's also like people don't know what is useful anymore.". Well, that got me thinking back then.

You can argue all you want if he's right or not; if the software he writes is difficult or not, but it's not that he didn't see the advantage of those things. But turns out that most repetitions do not require and are not good with recursion (they just loop over a collection or a range of values; a for+iterators or numbers would usually do), most functions do not return other functions (not that you couldn't do it that way, but it's usually the case that your program is simpler if you don't), and minimalism is not really that much convenient in writing software for $$ (many people seem to reach this conclusion). Lots of applications are still single threaded, and runs in only one process. Immutability is a lot more interesting in theory than in practice for a large class of programs. Static typing still catches a lot of problems, and people usually do not bother that much about having to write down the types. Beautiful techniques for managing large programs are very interesting ... for large programs. It turns out that lots of programs are not that large. And the list goes on and on.