| HN Mirror

pydry 396 days ago

>Your argument is the same as Iraq being a realistic threat against the US.

Your argument appears to be that your enemy's fear driven by losing 27 million people during an invasion/war of extermination is exactly equivalent to your country's fear of weapons that were imagined solely for the purposes of justifying an invasion.

My argument was that it is quite easy to get a domestic population to treat all of the enemy's legitimate fears as utterly irrelevant while treating bullshit domestic fears as existential.

In a way I think you helped make this point for me by forgetting about those 27 million deaths.

Which 27 million deaths? Finland never had 27 million inhabitants.

pydry 394 days ago

The Soviet Union lost 27 million people in WW2. It was a minor detail you swept under the carpet in your comment.

StefanBatory 396 days ago

It's such a mystery why all neighbours of Russia hate Russia and Russians.

If only there was a reason for this.

I can name about 8 who dont. The rest all belong to or tried to join a military bloc which helped rape Iraq, Libya and Afghanistan for no particular reason other than because the gang boss demanded it.

It's more of mystery why particular kinds of westerners are especially sanctimonious about Moscow while bending over backwards to excuse nearly identical behavior from the west.

> The rest all belong to or tried to join a military bloc which helped rape Iraq, Libya and Afghanistan for no particular reason other than because the gang boss demanded it.

Quick essay for 20 points, those countries all decided to join NATO BEFORE Iraq, Libya, Afghanistan.

WHY did they decide to try to join NATO? Who were they running away from and why?

The promise to Ukraine was that they are going to be protected by their chosen gang rather than be cynically used to try and take down a rival gang.

The lie was laid bare once they were actually attacked. Article 5 protections - the only reason they are fighting this war - came off the table as soon as it became clear that the rival gang wasn't going to be taken down.

Quick essay for 30 points: write to a grieving mother campaigining against gangs explaining why even though her son joined the crips for protection and got murdered by a blood in the initiation phase, she needs to STFU about kids staying out of gangs. The reason is simple: she needs to STFU because several other 14 year olds who joined the crips for the promise of protection haven't yet had that promise tested.

earnestinger 395 days ago

Hate? No.

Wary? Yes.

Seems Necessary given current circumstances.

(After peace comes, and enough time passes, someday, we will be friends again)

lazide 395 days ago

Experience.

pixelesque 396 days ago

> The other one is about 300 sqkm with 5 million people.

You've missed a few significant figures there, Finland's area is: 338145 km2

mazurnification 396 days ago

No, fear is not why Soviet Union allayed with Nazis. Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact was agreement in which Nazis and Soviets divided central/eastern Europe between them. They even had join parade after conquering Poland in Brest (Brześć). And yes, they ware allied.

They were fighting Japan at the time, were unable to fight a war on two fronts and Britain had at that point chosen to follow a strategy of appeasement towards the Nazis.

And your idea is that they had zero reason to fear invasion from the west? Even though that is precisely what happened just a few years later?

mazurnification 395 days ago

First of all this were USSR-Japan skirmishes not war, second they did not have to worry about Japan as was shown by Soviet–Japanese Neutrality Pact of April 1941, third if they were worried about Japan then "spending" army on invasion of Poland, Finland, Baltics, Bessarabia were counter productive, fourthly at the time of Ribentrop Molotov pact Britain ceased following appeasement strategy as shown by declaring war to Germany at 3-rd of September 1939 as fulfillment of security guarantees given to Poland in March of 1939.

It is totally ahistoric to pin any actions of USSR on fear or just reaction to external events. If WWII was continuation of WWI (in my and many opinion it was) both Germany and USRR were revanchist powers that wanted to reverse outcome of WWI. Many forgot that Russia later USSR lost WWI badly. Plus Stalin after very, very, bloody consolidation of power in 30ties was ready (in fact it was imperative for regime stability) to start outward aggression/expansion.

Furthermore historian believe that Stalin knew that confrontation w/ Germany is inevitable but (more popular opinion) was estimating it will happen one year later at least or (less popular, even fringe opinion) was amassing forces to attack Germany and was cough by Nazis w/ "pants down". Either scenario would be explanation for initial successes of Operation Barbarossa.

Fun fact - last train with grain from USSR to Germany crossed border few minutes before start of Operation Barbarossa.

In summary - Soviets and Nazis were allies till 1941 - both parties know it was tactical alliance not unlike USSR - GB/USA against Germany and at the very end Japan. Note that after WWII there was cold war between former allies - not unlike like hot war between former alliance parties of Nazis and Soviets.

Second fun fact: Orwell's "oceania was always at war with eastasia" from 1984 is direct reference to how alliances were changing during WWII.

>First of all this were USSR-Japan skirmishes not war, second they did not have to worry about Japan as was shown by Soviet–Japanese Neutrality Pact of April 1941

...two years after Molotov Ribbentrop.

If they had nothing to worry about Japan it logically follows that they had nothing to worry about Hitler either as was shown by the Molotov Ribbentrop pact.

In 1939 the Soviet military was a disaster, also. It's difficult to overstate just how exposed they were.

>Furthermore historian believe that Stalin knew that confrontation w/ Germany is inevitable

They were right to be afraid.

>In summary - Soviets and Nazis were allies till 1941 -

In summary, out of fear which was entirely legitimate. Fun fact: the only difference between them and Finland is that Finland gets excused for allying to Hitler out of fear by its western allies.

StefanBatory 396 days ago

Fear is why Finland allied with the Nazis.

... or maybe because Fins got invaded by Soviets.

euroderf 395 days ago

When speaking to Americans, I explain the wartime co-operation between Finland and Germany as, "The enemy of my enemy is not necessarily my 'friend', but we can do business."

yencabulator 395 days ago

I'd go with "Otherwise they would have attacked us also, and we definitely couldn't afford a war on two fronts."

pydry 396 days ago

They didnt stop being allied to the Nazis after the winter war was over. Fear maintained that alliance.

Just like fear of "greater finland" made the Soviets invade in the first place.

It's fear all the way down. The only difference is the validity of those fears. Obviously your country's enemies' fears were always invalid while your country's allies' fears were always justified.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gleiwitz_incident

mopsi 396 days ago

> Just like fear of "greater finland" made the Soviets invade in the first place.

And the fear of Poland made the Nazis invade Poland, right?

Their propaganda no doubt presented things this way, but that was far from the truth. Much like Nazis had to stage a Polish attack on German radio station[1] to justify their invasion of Poland, the USSR had to fabricate the shelling of Mainila[2] to justify the invasion of Finland, because neither Poland nor Finland were apparently threatening enough on their own.

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shelling_of_Mainila

No. The closest living analog to the Nazis today is our allies in Israel and like the Nazis they arent shy about endless expansionism for the sake of creating lebensraum for their ubermensch. Theyre not very shy about the holocaust theyre committing either.

Russia never went on an extermination drive in order to create an ethnically pure ethnostate.

The biggest western geopolitical mistake of the 2020s is assuming that Israel isnt run by Nazis but Russia is.

>Their propaganda no doubt presented things this way

Every country presents its propaganda in its own way. Pointing that a country that you consider an enemy publishes propaganda without reference to your own serves merely to underscore that accident of birth dictates which flavor of propaganda you believe.

earnestinger 395 days ago

> Russia never went on an extermination drive in order to create an ethnically pure ethnostate.

Technically correct is the best kind of correct.

pydry 394 days ago

Technically I'd prefer to be living in a newbuild in Mariupol paying taxes to a different government rather than having the Israeli army drop bombs on my head and starving my entire family until we are all dead.

Small distinction to you perhaps, but to me it's a bit more than just "technical".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circassian_genocide

> Russia never went on an extermination drive in order to create an ethnically pure ethnostate.

> Just like fear of "greater finland" made the Soviets invade in the first place.

Which "fear" prompted the Soviets to invade Romania in 1940? Which "fear" prompted the Soviets to invade Poland in 1939? Which "fear" prompted the Soviets to invade the Baltics in 1940?

Ah, now I remember, the "fear" of not being the premier colonial power.