[radicalbyte]

I'm probably going to be modded down like crazy for this; just remember it's not a rant, I'm just sharing my perception of America as a whole. Hopefully you'll see some value in an outside opinion :)

DISCLAIMER: I'm writing this based in a view of "average" America. HN readers are most likely far from the average. It's a view shared by many younger (<35) people I talk to.

TL;DR: European views US as being backwards, socially underdeveloped. Geared for the rich. But with great TV, films and software companies. And the "average" American is 55, Obese, and thinks that Paris is a short stroll from the center of London (that might tainted be because I lived near Stratford-upon-Avon, which is a honey pot for dumb but wealthy Boomers on their first trip outside of the US).

I'm British, moved to The Netherlands at 26 (I'm now 32). I've travelled all over the world, US (see below), Scandinavia, most of Europe, Africa and Asia.

My perception of the US is that it's like a big company: they've been the boss for so long that they have forgotten to improve. Sure, in the 1960s they were the best at everything. Only the world has moved on, and in reality they're quickly turning into a dinosaur.

From what I've seen of Americans, their ideas are stuck very much in the 1900s. They're hierarchical, the system is tailored to the factory owners.

The lower class have been conditioned to think that faux sweat-shop working conditions (40+ hour working weeks) are a good thing. They don't have vacations. They can be sacked pretty much at will. Healthcare is fubar. There's a complete lack of empathy and realism. Which is strange from a land which claims to be "Christian".

The Americans I speak to seem to fall into two groups: those brainwashed into believing that if they work themselves to death they'll "get rich", or those who're just plain religious lunatics who've thus been conditioned to "suffer" for their "faith".

The only two areas where I see the US leading are in Computing and Entertainment; and this is more a function of the US speaking one language than it is anything inherent in the attitude or politics.

Now for something completely anecdotal:

I live in the Netherlands. I have a nice house. It's smaller than the American norm, but our land is smaller. It's better built (brick instead of wood).

I have a good job, earn a good salary (3x norm). In the US I'd earn three to five times as much - but that's more a function of the market than society (higher demand in US). I work a 38 hour week, and have 25 days holiday (+ 6-8 public holidays).

My health insurance costs $150/month, and isn't connected to my employer.

My employer can't just sack me. If I were to become unemployed, I'd get enough in welfare to live comfortably. If I'm injured, and unable to work, then I receive 70% of my salary plus the state benefits (which include the healthcare).

I pay lots of tax: 40% of my salary, 21% on anything I buy (except for cars, they have a 40% tax-rate, and food which is 6%), 70% of the cost of my fuel, and $100/month car tax. $100/month in local government fees. I can claw back $300 of tax a month on mortgage interest - it'd be much more if I'd have bought a bigger place (didn't seem wise at the time, we bought in 2007, at the peak).

I had a decent education in the UK, but I'm an outlier: because I got severally bullied (my parents were religious, evangelical Christians, and the UK's main religion is a Atheism) I missed my last year of Highschool (still score in the top 10% of the exams, top 5% in the STEM) and have educated myself to University-level via the Open University (and it helps having a decent IQ ~146 in the Mensa test, for what it's worth). I speak fluent Dutch (one of the harder languages to learn. Oh, and I still have an inferiority complex because I can't help but compare myself to the brilliant people here, and I aspire to top my field :)

My wife had a fantastic education in the Netherlands, and - together with all other people in her field - is better qualified than any American (she's a Pharmacist, in the Netherlands they're as well educated as medical doctors; pharmaceutical decisions are made by the specialists here, not just by the doctors).

I can go into town, to a coffee shop, and smoke a joint. I won't be arrested. I won't do it. But if I drive 50 miles to the East I would be (European insanity).

I have choice of cable/ASDL providers. Almost everyone here has >10mb/s internet. I have choice out of lots of mobile providers. Only if I travel 50 miles to the East, 100 miles to the South or 200 miles to the West it gets expensive (because the idea of the United States of Europe has failed in the face of capitalism).

I can cycle to work. Or to town. Without going on the roads, because there are cycle tracks everywhere. Lots of people do. But I'm too out of shape to do it. I probably should, because I'm overweight.

* I've been to Florida & NYC; they were like two different countries.

* Florida (1995) was a shit hole full of rude and ignorant people with plastic smiles. The officials at the airport were assholes, they treated the black and Asian foreigners like dirt. The people who weren't being assholes were all astonished to hear my British accent, they loved how quaint and foreign it sounded, "just like Monty Python" and "just like the Beatles" apparently (I sound nothing like either).

* NYC (2008) is fantasic. The people were friendly, they didn't patronise you. The police were friendly and helpful. The people at the Airport were great - nicer than they are in London Heathrow. That was the biggest surprise of all, and says the most about New York.

[mbesto]

Yankee living in the UK here...

I totally agree with your sentiment and let me play something out on the flip-side that I noticed about British life...

British people are brought up in a society that teaches them average is always OK and that life has dealt it's cards, so just deal with it. I know this is a sweeping generalization, and isn't how everyone in Great Britain operates, but this has been my general understanding of the motivation culture in this fine country. I've had this discussion with many people, either foreign or not, and they tend to believe this is a result of being in a class-system for hundreds of years.

You see, America was built and is comprised largely of the most motivated people on the planet. They (we) came to find the country because they wanted something better. Does the American Dream still exist? Of course it does, because it's an idea and will only die if we tell the idea to die. America is NOT for everyone. As you've outlined, not EVERYONE wants to live like that. I enjoy the same comforts as you, but I believe if I have the same superior means and the intelligence a you, I can earn vastly more money in the US and live vastly more comfortable. Does that mean I necessarily want that life? Not really, it's just that America provides and culturally accepts that plausibility of it, regardless of whether it's truly a reality.

This is probably going to be a radical statement - but I really wish the poor people of America had the ability to leave the country. They are really the only ones who complain about America not being suitable and backwards. If you're rich in America, there's little to complain about and life is good. What this would do is force the rich to provide better support to the poor, because without the poor the rich won't exist and we'd have a much bigger middle class (which is something that has made America so strong).

[radicalbyte]

Ahh, another outlier :)

That's a good observation about the British. They're also really pessimistic (Americans are broadly positive). And, unfortunately, they're very small minded (polar opposite of Americans). That's the result of being a fallen Empire, I guess.

I like the Dutch: they're stubborn and everyone has an opinion on everything BUT they respect that. Heck, it's expected. That's something they have in common with Americans (very direct and opinionated). They have a similar background (America was colonized by various Christian sects, The Netherlands was the central hub of lots of sects because it was the only place they managed to live together without killing each other). Yet they're pragmatic, and largely class-less. Same as the Scandinavians. They also share the same 19th century ideas over work as the Yanks (>40h weeks, retire at 67), only they have holidays. Protestant work ethic at work.

BTW, I would recommend spending some time living in a foreign country - as a native (INTEGRATING, not moving to Spain to live with a load of rich British ex-pats) to anyone reading. It really opens your mind, and changes the way you think about yourself (and the world as a whole). Even better if you can combine it with learning another language.

[_delirium]

On work hours, the Scandinavians do still have the Protestant work ethic culturally, but have been trying to cut back on number of hours, out of a theory (probably correct imo) that in a modern information economy it's more about quality of work than quantity of hours in chair. The current Danish workweek is 37 hours, and followed quite religiously. Everyone is on time and works efficiently during the day (no 2-hour lunches), but few people can be found in the office past 3pm on a Friday.

Scandinavia is also an interesting option on the last point if you aren't up to the language-learning, though there are pros/cons. It's actually harder to integrate language-wise than most other places, because the languages are phonologically difficult for Americans (especially Danish), and people all speak good English so their patience for your broken language is low as they can just switch. So you'll probably learn more Spanish in Spain or Italian in Italy than Danish in Denmark. But because of the good English, it's quite possible to at least partly integrate culturally if you find the right social circles. (It also makes it easy to deal with formalities, since much government and bank correspondence can be done in English if you request it.)

[smsm42]

It is true that quality is more important than quantity. But somehow in many cases people do use that as an excuse to slack off, and on the contrary, people delivering the best quality also those that do not skimp on quantity. If somebody knows how to do his thing in an excellent way, he'd probably also stay after 3pm on Friday to finish his thing. If his mind turns off at 3pm, then maybe he wasn't turned on too much even at 2pm. At least where it concerns professions which require personal engagement, if you just dig holes 9 to 5 (to 3 on Friday) then it's different of course.

[_delirium]

I guess I don't think that's true. Imo, the best quality comes from companies with happy employees who have good work/life balances, not from the kind of places that expect employees to be chained to the boss.

[yummyfajitas]

because without the poor the rich won't exist

Could you explain this statement? If you mean to imply that the rich somehow exploit the poor, the reality is exactly the other way around - the poor and middle class exploit the rich.

http://gregmankiw.blogspot.com/2012/07/progressivity-of-taxe...

To quote Paul Krugman on the topic (he was discussing the 1980's, but none of the facts he relies on have changed significantly since then).

"...growth in inequality is not a simple picture. Old-line leftists, if there are any left, would like to make it a single story--the rich becoming richer by exploiting the poor. But that's just not a reasonable picture of America in the 1980s. For one thing, most of our very poor don't work, which makes it hard to exploit them. For another, the poor had so little to start with that the dollar value of the gains of the rich dwarfs that of the losses of the poor..."

The Age of Diminished Expectations, 1990, p. 22.

Also, the US has more progressive taxation than the rest of the OECD.

http://taxfoundation.org/blog/no-country-leans-upper-income-...

[lunarscape]

"and the UK's main religion is a Atheism"

What? The last census (2001, since 2011 results are pending) put Christianity at 72% and "no religion" at 15%. Surveys in 2011 by other groups put Christianity consistently above 60%. Considering the UK has an official state religion, a monarchy and unelected bishops in political office.. I can't see how anyone can claim the UK is "atheist".

[Gmo]

As a Frenchman, I also can't see how you can call the UK "atheist" :p

BUT, I do think the number of religious extremists is lower. (I haven't lived in the UK though).

It's like when I hear people here (I live in the Netherlands) that they are not a religious country. The fact that they have several political parties with Christian root (and still being actively referring to them) among other things tell me otherwise ...

[Udo]

I agree with most of your points, but as a German, my perspective is a bit different (and that is really 50 miles to the East of you). For all the things that are objectively better here in Europe, I always felt a bit like I was born in the wrong country, like the US is where I really belong. Of course, me being a scientifically-minded atheist, the idea of really fitting in there is probably absurd in practice, but still the general feeling remains.

Probably it's all more related to the idea of America as a country of free and innovative thinkers. Compared to Germany, where the definition of progress is a carefully hedged illusion of marginal improvement based on immovable foundations, the US still seems like a country where big ideas can be generated and accepted into society. When I'm over there, I also generally get the feeling people tend to be a bit more friendly and cooperative in the Staates.

[sliverstorm]

the idea of really fitting in there is probably absurd in practice

Nah, just pick the right location. The USA has 300M people. A good number of them are scientifically minded atheists.

[antidoh]

"My health insurance costs $150/month, and isn't connected to my employer."

If I could change one thing about the US, this would be high on the list. In order to have meaningful access to quality health care, you must have insurance, and for most people the only way to get good insurance is through your job. If you have a job.

Don't lose your job, because if you get sick society is quite happy for you to dry up and rot.