[benabbott]

I generally drive at or below the speed limit. This is to reduce fuel and improve safety. On a multiple lane road, I'm nearly always on the right (slow) lane.

Unfortunately, this safety measure is usually torpedoed by other drivers. People (usually driving a 'light truck' (an SUV or pickup)) will drive at a single car length behind me. Even on multi-lane roads. If I had to slam on my brakes, I'd be at risk in my sedan.

I absolutely would support wide proliferation of speed cameras. It would be easy, profitable, promote safety, and we could do it today. It would take zero extra policing (in fact, it'd probably reduce workload on police).

I acknowledge that you can fight this kicking and screaming with speed enforcement measures—but I think there's two things that are causing people to drive faster: Wide, straight, flat roads that allow no speed reference, and large sealed vehicles that reduces perceived speed. Change these, and I think that will be a great step to reducing "pedestrian fatalities" (or to call it like it is: people getting murdered due to carelessness and impatience).

[sokoloff]

Assuming no weather, your driving below the speed limit on an expressway is almost surely working against your stated goal of improving road safety.

[nine_k]

Depends on how much below; 2 mph below the limit must be OK, 20 mph, more problematic.

[unyttigfjelltol]

The highway speed scatterpot in the US has a floor at the "speed limit" and the median speed is usually 10mph to 15mph higher than that. In this scenario, driving the "speed limit" means nearly all other users will overtake you at a significant differential, and some in a disorderly manner. Consistently doing so in heavy traffic provokes backups and the usual consequences to other drivers.

[danaris]

My experience on US highways is that it generally isn't quite that bad: if you're going roughly the speed limit, you will be in company with a significant subset of the commercial vehicles, whose owners mandate following the speed limit (and in some cases enforce it with GPS surveillance).

[sokoloff]

Your description sounds right but also pretty similar to GP’s characterization of a floor at the limit and 10-15 mph higher median with the result that more than half of traffic is passing you at a 20+% speed differential.

[nine_k]

Not great! But won't taking the right lane help a bit? I don't think that every vehicle on a highway goes as fast as the speed limit; does it?

[sokoloff]

Being in the right lane is the least bad place to be driving 15 mph under the median speed, yes.

[watwut]

Quite a few people drive somewhat below speed limit. There is nothing unsafe about it, except wishful thinking to rationalize fast driving. Fast driving is fun, quite a few people equate "fast and nimble" with "good driver", but safety is not the thing they are achieving.

[bluGill]

The autobahn proves consistently that speed variation is not itself a problem.

[randerson]

If anything, the Autobahn proves that the system works when everyone respects the rules and each other, all cars undergo regular roadworthy inspections, driver training is rigorous, and the road is designed for speed variation. In the US, none of that is the case.

[zahlman]

What does "designing a road for speed variation" look like?

[sokoloff]

Having rigorous enforcement of minimum radius in curves*, preserving more available cornering/braking traction and wide lanes, providing for better sightlines ahead (for faster traffic) and behind (for slower traffic contemplating pulling out to pass even slower traffic).

* - I did an internship for Mercedes in the early 90s and we had testing access to a section of ex-A8 near Stuttgart that was retired because it didn't meet the modern autobahn requirements and so had been replaced with a re-routed A8. To my American college-student mind that seemed incredibly wasteful, but it sure was convenient for our testing. I can't find it now on Google maps, but it's been 30 years so may have been demolished by now.

Edit: There's a hiking area called "Alte A8" which is probably it/related: https://maps.app.goo.gl/1SyBPKNie1x13AYy8

[analog31]

Much less overall traffic, in my view.

[cameldrv]

The Autobahn is much more challenging to drive on due to the extreme speed variation between trucks in the right lane going 80 kph and race car drivers in the left going 250.

IMO the only reason that it's acceptably safe is strict German driver's licensing requirements and fairly strong enforcement of traffic laws. If you had the same regime but American style speed variation, I think you'd see considerably safer roads in Germany.

[DangitBobby]

Highly location dependent. Some roads will average right around the speed limit or just above.

[chneu]

Any congestion is more dangerous. Driving below the speed limit is unpredictable and dangerous because it causes congestion.

Driving slow also creates road rage around you, which reduces safety.

Be predictable, follow the flow of traffic. Stop trying to be the safety police because you're just making things worse.

[YZF]

I think this is great as long as the speed limits are set correctly. What I worry would happen is that the speed limits would intentionally be set low to maximize revenue from the speed enforcement system.

On my way to work there is a long stretch of road with great visibility, two lanes in each direction, physical separation between directions, very wide shoulders with virtually zero pedestrian traffic, but the speed limit is 50km/hr. Nobody drives 50 on that road. The traffic generally flows at 70. Similarly there are many semi-industrial areas with wide roads, no traffic, few pedestrians with a 50km/hr limit. We also have highways with 80km/hr limits where traffic generally flows (safely) at 90-100.

Guess what, all those places are where police hangs out looking for speeders.

Contrast that with small streets in dense urban or suburban areas where despite the limit being 50 most people drive closer to 40. Or when it's foggy or raining heavily and you want to drive slower on the highway than the speed limit.

That said there is a question of balancing the somewhat improved safety of lower speeds to the improved efficiency of driving a bit faster. I'm not sure how you balance that. There are other options like moving people to mass transit or closing some city streets to car traffic completely.

[nradov]

People who drive below the posted speed limit (road boulders) are a menace. They increase the risk to everyone else as other drivers try to get around them.

[like_any_other]

Is everyone in the US expected to drive at least the speed limit on motorways? Here in Europe, there are always vehicles going slower - buses, trucks, vans, or just older cars or drivers not in a hurry. If the limit is 130 km/h, you routinely encounter vehicles going 90-110.

The menace are drivers not adjusting to the realities of the road.

[spogbiper]

it really depends on what part of the country and the type of road and even the time of day

if I were to go even the posted speed limit during my morning commute, I would be causing a hazard. it's 5-10 over just to be safely part of the flow

same road in the evening and doing the limit or even a bit under is safe

imho, the dangerous drivers are those who for whatever reason do not base their speed on the flow of traffic around them

[Toutouxc]

Wow, that sounds like a toxic environment.

I'm also in Europe and here it's completely normal to drive the speed limit. The motorway speed limit in my country is 130 km/h (81 mph). I drive an EV, so I usually stay around 110 km/h (68 mph) for efficiency, which is still faster than all trucks (limited at 90 km/h (56 mph)) and quite a few passenger cars and vans. Most cars drive a bit faster than me (at or around the speed limit) and very few drive faster than the limit (mostly the usual suspects, german luxury cars or sports cars).

I honestly can't imagine being forced to break the law every day just to get to work safely.

[ryandrake]

In the US, speed limits are set far lower than required for safety, in order to maximize revenue from citations. More importantly, it allows the police to pick and choose who to pull over: When 99% of cars on the freeway are speeding, the police can pull over anyone, and they will use that discretion to pull over “certain kinds” of people they would like to target. Black people get pulled over less frequently at night, when the darkness does not allow the officer to see who is in the car they choose to pull over[1].

1: https://news.stanford.edu/stories/2020/05/veil-darkness-redu...

[sokoloff]

Translating those to our dumber units, that would be a highway posted at 80mph and seeing slower traffic doing 55-70 mph.

This subthread is discussing highways with prevailing 75-80 mph traffic and some road users driving less than the posted 55 mph limit in a belief that doing so adds to road safety.

[ty6853]

A large part of the US depends on 2 lane highways on which overtaking slow vehicles can be a dangerous proposition even when done legally.

[javcasas]

Everyone that drives slower than me is a slowpoke, everyone that drives faster than me is a maniac.

Nah dude, your intolerance is the menace here.

[AStonesThrow]

In my city I sometimes hire a scooter-share. These electric scooters can go up to 17mph.

It is perfectly legal for me to drive in a traffic lane. It may be OK to drive on the sidewalk, with significant restrictions. But it is usually not.

I typically opt to drive in traffic: the limit is going to be around 35mph. You can perhaps predict the sort of reactions I endure from motorists when I’m hogging their precious lanes at ½ their speed. Would you believe spitting in my face?

Nevertheless, I persist carefully, because I’m right, and I drive with scrupulous safety, and I hope and pray that others follow my lead, because electric scooters at 17mph on the sidewalk is fucking dangerous to pedestrian me at all other times.

[andyjohnson0]

> People who drive below the posted speed limit are a menace

Its the speed limit. Its not the speed that everyone has to drive at in all circumstances and conditions.

[benabbott]

Might I direct you to the text on the sign, Speed "Limit"?

The ones causing danger are the drivers attempting to pass dangerously, not the person driving slowly. Do cyclists cause danger by using roadways? Or is it the people driving multiple-ton vehicles?

[rcoveson]

Assigning blame doesn't do anything for safety, even if you're right. Where I live, by far the safest thing to do is to drive ~4 mph over the limit on all non-residential roads. If you drive below or even right at the limit, you will be tailgated or passed with far greater frequency. That behavior is out of your control, at least on the road. You can push for more consistent enforcement while you're not driving (I'm inclined to do so myself), but while you're behind the wheel, the only behavior you can change is your own.

[tshaddox]

> Assigning blame doesn't do anything for safety, even if you're right.

It's reasonable to talk about which party should be the one to change their behavior, and that's essentially the same thing as assigning blame.

[rcoveson]

No disagreement here, but where the literal rubber hits the road, you still have to decide how to act when the ambient semi-aggressive driving population continues to behave in the way that they do. Will you blamelessly be road raged at 50-100% more often than a more moderate driver (who drives at the most popular speed, though it may be over the limit) just because if an accident does happen it will be the road rager's fault?

It's a very frustrating social problem. Obviously we can't let ourselves be held collectively hostage by bad actors in all situations. But I would still predict that there are some situations where the bad actor population is so large and "mildly-bad" that indefinitely giving in to their implicit demands is the right game theoretic choice.

[tshaddox]

> But I would still predict that there are some situations where the bad actor population is so large and "mildly-bad" that indefinitely giving in to their implicit demands is the right game theoretic choice.

Game theory is quite a big thing, that's for sure. And it's no surprise that actors will tend towards these situations where you're tempted to think "eh, letting them do this bad thing with impunity feels like the right game theoretic choice, because it's right at the limit of not being bad enough to illicit a response." And yet, there's a reason for things like territorial behavior in the animal kingdom, where an animal will defend minor territory disputes at great personal cost even when the cost of losing a small amount of territory seems much smaller.

[watwut]

Well, "People who drive below the posted speed limit (road boulders) are a menace" is not just assigning blame, but severely exaggerated angry claim. Somehow, you have choose fairly calm response to it as the thing to criticize as assigning blame.

[kurthr]

And driving in the "slow" lane where every single driver has to go past you to get on/off the road isn't generally safe either. On a 2 lane road you don't have much choice, but on a busy 3 lane road, probably not a great choice either.

[potato3732842]

If you can't understand the subtle, but still fairly obvious and unmistakeable difference between being a net increase in danger/problem potential without a) breaking the rules b) personally increasing your own financial liability for any bad outcomes you probably ought not to be driving.

There's a reason tractors get triangles and oversize stuff gets highly visible signs.

[zdragnar]

If you are driving slower than other traffic, under the speed limit, and there is not a weather condition or a road impediment, that is also illegal in most (or all?) states.

> Do cyclists cause danger by using roadways?

They are also expected to move with traffic if they are taking up a lane. This is among the reasons non-motorized vehicles are not allowed on freeways.

Anyone moving slower than expected are intrinsically an impediment and a hazard, just the same as anyone speeding or otherwise driving recklessly.

[californical]

Just to be clear - your statements about the law are all completely untrue, except for some states having a few specific highways with a “minimum speed”. For example, a highway near me says “left lane minimum speed 45mph” - where the speed of the road is 65.

Unless you can find some laws that specify that driving below the speed limit is illegal?

[chneu]

Impeding the flow of traffic is illegal. Most states have "if x number of vehicles are behind you, you are required to use pull offs or let vehicles pass" laws.

If a cop thinks your slow driving is dangerous they can absolutely write a citation. There are a bunch of laws that allow them to do this in most states.

[nradov]

Many states have laws against obstructing traffic. Most of them don't mention a specific minimum speed so enforcement is largely at the discretion of law enforcement officers. Personally I would like to see strict enforcement of those laws with tickets given out to anyone who intentionally impedes the flow of traffic.

[californical]

Obstructing traffic is very different than “driving more slowly than the person behind you wants”. Obstructing means blocking, not making them wait 30 seconds for a good chance to go around.

If you are moving a large item that is fragile, are you allowed to go 35mph in a 45mph zone to reduce the risk of damaging the fragile item? Or is that illegal too? Or what if one of your passengers gets car sick easily?

In fact, there are some winding mountain roads in California where the speed limit is 55, but if you go that fast, you’re suicidal because there are no guard rails and very sharp turns. Occasionally, someone mildly suicidal will come up behind you. Is it illegal to drive 15mph in that 55 zone?

Safety is prioritized above speed, suggesting otherwise is unhinged and antisocial.

[potato3732842]

They should use the same fine schedule as speeding.

It ought to be just as lucrative for a cop to nab someone who's unreasonably stopping at a merge as it is to nab someone who's going a few over.

[kurthr]

It's called unsafe driving and it's definitely ticketable.

[DangitBobby]

It's very smart to have laws set up so that whether you are speeding or not, you can be pulled over for a moving traffic violation! That way, the police always have a legal pretense for a traffic stop.

[zdragnar]

A very simple google search brought this up immediately:

https://docs.legis.wisconsin.gov/statutes/statutes/346/ix/59...

Other states have something similar on the books as well.

[DangitBobby]

Your simple search doesn't back up your position. I can assure you, going ~1MPH below the speed limit does not run afoul of that law.

[cameldrv]

Above the limit, I agree that people speeding bear primary responsibility, although if you're not going the limit in the left lane, you are creating an obstacle for sure. If you're going significantly below the limit though, what's the reason? The whole point of a car is to get you from point A to point B quickly.

[renewiltord]

Not in the right lane. On expressways that lane (at least here in California) is most likely to have semi-trailer trucks going their max speed of 55 mph. A 55 mph driver will be right at home in that lane.

[paddy_m]

What does require in person enforcement is making sure license plates aren't obscured, defaced, or removed. The left in this country needs to reconcile that enforcement of laws is a good thing. Matthew Yglessias talks about this a lot.

This requires the most enforcement in front of NYC precincts. I truly don't know how such a corrupt organization could be reformed.

https://x.com/hashtag/CriminalMischief

https://x.com/GershKuntzman