[ang_cire]

A better analogy would be if you see a bunch of people walking around in faulty stab vests, and you tell them that the vests are faulty before they are recalled and replaced by the company. In which case, telling everyone those vests are actually not going to stop a knife, is a very good thing to do.

> I did not make the argument that obscurity is security... But that doesn't mean non-obscurity automatically improves security.

... egad. Yes, having information doesn't mean people will do the right thing with it, but you're not everyone's mommy/god/guardian. People should have the choice themselves about what actions they want to take, and what's in their own best interests.

And obscuring the information that they need to make that choice, in the name of not making them less secure, is, ipso facto, asserting that the obscuring is keeping them more secure than they otherwise might be.

So yes, you absolutely are arguing for obscurity as security.

[fastball]

Sure, we can run with your analogy. So you make everyone aware that the stab vests are faulty. One of the people you make aware of this fact is a thief with a knife, who previously wasn't gonna take the risk on robbing anyone, since he only had a knife (not a gun) and everyone was wearing stab proof vests. But now he knows, so he goes for it and stabs someone. You are partially responsible for this outcome in this hypothetical scenario, as the thief didn't know beforehand about the defect and the only reason he ended up stabbing someone was due to this knowledge. Again, you not knowing whether or not the thief already knows does not excuse you if he did not and now does through your actions.

I'm arguing that unveiling the obscurity can lead to attacks that wouldn't have happened otherwise, and you are partially to blame for those if they happen (which is true). I am not saying it was "more secure" before the disclosure. Just that, in the world afterwards, you must take responsibility for everyone knowing, including people who did not know before and abuse that knowledge.

[ang_cire]

> But now he knows, so he goes for it and stabs someone.

Except his old knife he already had with him isn't made for exploiting the flaw in the vest, so it doesn't work. He needs to go home and build a new one, and the people in the mall can go home before he comes back, now that they know their vests are flawed. Otherwise, someone who comes in and is aware of the flaw when the users are not, can stab everyone, and they'd have no clue they were vulnerable.

In real-world terms, the kind of mass-exploitation that people use to fear monger about disclosure already happens everyday, and most people don't notice. The script kid installing a monero miner on your server should not be driving the conversation, it should be the IC spook recording a journalist/ dissident/ etc.

> Just that, in the world afterwards, you must take responsibility for everyone knowing, including people who did not know before and abuse that knowledge.

This is just a generalized argument for censorship of knowledge. Yes, humans can use knowledge to do bad things. No, that does not justify hiding information. No, that does not make librarians/ researchers/ teachers responsible for the actions of those that learn from them.

[haswell]

> Except his old knife he already had with him isn't made for exploiting the flaw in the vest, so it doesn't work.

This seems like an unnecessary constraint to bolster your point instead of actually addressing what the other person is saying.

In this analogy, why can’t the old knife exploit the flaw? If the problem with the vest allows a sharp implement through the material when inserted at the correct angle or in the correct place, any sharp object should do.

To bring this back to the real world, this is all unfolding in virtual/digital spaces. The attacker doesn’t need to physically go anywhere, nor can potential victims easily leave the store in many cases. And the attacker often needs very little time to start causing harm thanks to the landscape of tools available today.