[markbnj]

As an almost-daily motorcyclist with 15k miles on my current machine (Suzuki DL650), I absolutely agree that the increased proportion of pickup trucks on the road increases the risks for riders, however I suspect it is mainly because the larger, heavier vehicles aggravate the effects of a general deterioration in driving skills and attitudes. One thing about riding a motorcycle is that you are, unless you have a death wish, an active and observant participant in what you are doing, which alone separates you from a seeming majority of those driving cars and trucks. You become much more aware of what others on the road are doing, and what they are doing, in large numbers, is acting like twits.

Driving crazily fast in residential areas, rolling through stop signs, blowing off yellow and even red lights, ignoring turn signals, aggressively tailgating cars, trucks, even motorcyclists like myself, tapping away at their phones and steering with their knees. I think I see just about every variation of all of these things at least several times a week, to the extent that I have thought about the idea of creating some kind of org or foundation or even just a blog to advocate a return to taking driving seriously. I don't have a lot of confidence that I could make a difference though. I suspect a lot of the problem is simply many more cars on infrastructure that we haven't put enough money into for decades, but I'm no expert.

[NegativeLatency]

It's a really complicated issue, but you might find some of stuff related to Strong Towns, 15 minute cities, and sorta general modern urbanist things interesting. If we had better transit, more connected communities etc, people who are less interested in driving and driving well would have other options than hours long commutes.

[rkangel]

[Answer scope limited to the US]

The problem is that these people want to drive, and don't care about it. They want to drive for sociological reasons - driving is seen as a symbol of American independence and financial stability. Look at the people who get weird reactions because they chose to walk to work, or schools that object on spurious grounds when they walk their kid to school.

The car is seen as an assumption, a bare minimum. And any attempt to replace it is taking away a personal right.

[zamadatix]

I think these are really the same thing looked at from opposite side of the circle. When all of your coworkers are driving 45 minutes in on the highway because nothing is local to good housing, public transit isn't available at all, or the public transit available is so bad (in multiple ways) as to beg questions why you'd use it, then it drives the sociological assumptions about other types of transport in the same way the mindset itself drives the conditions which lead to even more assumptions.

One could say it's that people need to want to see better public transit as a good idea for normal people or one could say it's that public transit needs to be made better so people see it that way. In both situations, it's when public transit actually gets improved anything will actually change.

[naming_the_user]

I don't think this is limited to the US, I have exactly the same viewpoint as a Brit and so do many people I know.

People like walking to work and like taking the tube after a night out, but ultimately, the car is just vastly more convenient and comfortable for such a large amount of stuff.

You may as well ask me to give up running water because technically I could just carry it from the well.

Realistically if public transport advocates want progress they need to demonstrate that they also understand the utility of cars because otherwise they come across as simply being wilfully ignorant.

[rkangel]

I think there are two different things though, and in the UK the bar is (mostly) just a practical one.

Lots of my colleagues cycle to work, because the cycling infrastructure is great (both from Cambridge City, and from my employer). For those along the Guided Busway corridor, quite a few get to work like that because it is convenient.

Step 1 is to make the public transport good enough so that it is at least as good as taking a car. But the US has Step 2 - convince people that they aren't looking poverty stricken if they take a bus.

[1234letshaveatw]

I find those authoritarian "people should live their lives how we want them to" sites more annoying than anything. They also tend to be overly dismissive of residential solar, EVs, rural life and homesteading

[sevensor]

A friend of mine is a volunteer fireman. Since the fire engine sits higher than just about anything, he can see what people are doing behind the wheel in their SUVs. I’d be shocked, he reports, to know just how many of them are absorbed in their devices while driving.

[genezeta]

And since using your device while driving can mean a hefty fine -at least where I live- most of them do it by lowering/turning their gaze from the road so that the device stays more hidden instead of lifting the device and keeping their eyes "mostly" ahead.

It's just so stupid...

[seanhunter]

I recognise this picture. For example I remember when I used to commute by motorcycle getting cut off by a guy driving a van who had his phone clamped in the crook of his neck and was writing something in a notepad with a pencil and steering with a combination of the notepad and his knees. This is turning at a really busy junction in London[1] during rush hour traffic.

[1] just south of the river at Vauxhall bridge

[betterThanTexas]

> I don't have a lot of confidence that I could make a difference though.

My recent conclusion is that efforts are worth it even if we're pessimistic about outcome. Often times it is hard to get positive feedback from people you're helping to consider their own behavior even if they don't acknowledge you.

[nkrisc]

I am not a motorcyclist but I have to agree with your assessment based on my personal experience driving. The risks that morons take while driving is absurd, but I've seen how it affects motorcyclists more. I once saw a motorcyclist nearly get hit because they were being tailgated by a driver and another driver want to pass the tailgater, thinking they were just a slow driver. So the other driver speeds up and attempts to cut off the tailgater, only to realize at the last moment there was a motorcycle there.

After see that, I make sure to give any motorcycle I'm behind an extra buffer of space to make sure I'm not obstructing anyone's view of them.

Yes, driving has become a necessity for everyday life in most places, but we need to pump the brakes and remind everyone it is a privilege, not a right.

[aaronbrethorst]

Vision Zero exists and its entire output, at least in the US, seems to be some somewhat clever yard signs and good vibes. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vision_Zero

[mmooss]

> its entire output, at least in the US, seems to be some somewhat clever yard signs and good vibes

That's confusing to me. Many cities have worldwide have implemented vision zero techniques and saved many lives, including in the US.

[fazeirony]

i agree with this esp. when the parent linked a wiki page that, if you go beyond the single photo on the page and read it, is completely counter to the comment.

i'm confused too, but ty parent for making me aware of vision zero.

[aredox]

The USA is an anomaly amongst developed countries:

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2022-11-03/why-us-tr...

[HPsquared]

Live expectancy is also dropping in the US, it's notably different to other developed countries.

[nemacol]

> a general deterioration in driving skills

Is that a measured observation? Not trying to nitpick - genuinely curious if this is your observation from experience or there are some studies that you are referring to.

[actionfromafar]

My gut feel is that people drove very badly in the before-times but often also very slowly and cautiously at the same time. Speed felt dangerous in old vehicles. Modern computers with wheels are like living rooms with great acceleration and decelaration. Maneuvers which would had taken great skill to perform with an old rear-wheel drive car with bad tires, are now executed routinely like it's nothing, thanks to antispin, traction control etc etc.

Cars are much safer now, especially on the inside, but when you get hit on the outside by a several tonne projectile, it's about the same as it ever were.

[noahjk]

this is definitely a big part of it. in the past, cars were either small with tiny engines or big "boats" with massive engines and super soft suspension. those old suspensions weren't really about control - they were for comfort or just trying to deal with all that weight. now basically every car, no matter the size, comes with lighter parts, way smaller but way more powerful engines, smarter computers, better tires, and most importantly, way better suspension. all that means a lot more grip, way faster acceleration and braking, and a much bigger feeling of control - even for people who might not be paying full attention (or really know what they’re doing).

we've kind of made every car a sports car, and that means when people make mistakes, those mistakes get out of hand way quicker before physics wins.

then there’s the whole manufacturer's arms race - the classic prisoner's dilemma. trucks and suvs just keep getting bigger, faster, heavier, packed with screens and gadgets. all the old luxury stuff is standard everywhere now. so everyone is more and more isolated from the actual consequences of bad driving ... until they're not.

[markbnj]

>> Is that a measured observation? Not trying to nitpick - genuinely curious if this is your observation from experience or there are some studies that you are referring to.

It is from my experience as a rider, as I said in my post, but there are also plenty of studies showing increased deaths and injuries among pedestrians, cyclists and motorcyclists.

[HPsquared]

I think cars becoming safer has ironically driven a lot of this behaviour. People feel safe themselves and don't take care. It's called risk compensation.

[stoneman24]

I agree modern cars are much better engineered to increase passenger survivablity.

Can’t remember the program (it was a very long time ago) but the crash investigation expert said a 6 inch spike on the driver steering wheel would improve driver’s perception of risk as it would be a very pointed reminder of risk.

[potato3732842]

I don't think that's what's motivating people. Nobody was dying in droves before. The expected outcome of the mean and median example of distracted driving been purely financial ever since cars grew seatbelts and accidents are more expensive than ever. There's probably some other explanation, though I have no clue what.

[deepsun]

And I also noticed it's impossible to chat on the phone while riding a motorcycle due to heavy gloves :)