[Daniel_Newby]

> They have had enough bad experiences with secret police forces, and that's why there are strict limits on data gathering and retention.

Ha ha. The successors to the Stasi are meant to ignore these laws. The purpose is to keep the technologies out of the hands of the Hans Q. Public.

Remember, the Stasi were first and foremost a populist movement, just like the Nazis before them. You don't get an informer in every family by tyrrany, you get it by willing collaboration, and the Germans have an authority worshipping streak a mile wide.

[thinkingisfun]

Remember, the Stasi were first and foremost a populist movement, just like the Nazis before them. You don't get an informer in every family by tyrrany, you get it by willing collaboration

what? you're talking about eastern germany, with the wall that kept people from running away.

the Germans have an authority worshipping streak a mile wide.

what about the americans who move to berlin because they can hardly breathe in the USA anymore? you're operating under obsolete assumptions.

[freehunter]

You're coming from the assumption that Germany got better rather than the US got worse. There are still many freer countries than Germany.

[thinkingisfun]

"You're coming from the assumption that Germany got better"

No, I live in it. And it did. Just think the green or now the pirate party - unthinkable decades ago.

But where did I claim Germany is super free and the best, ever? I was simply responding the claim that Germans are authoritarian/obedient by nature - which, ironically, strikes me as racist - and was taking a wild jab, hoping the poster I replied to might come from the US, and simply said Germany is way more free (and dare I say, laid back) in some respects than the US currently is.

That's all, you can dispute that if you want; but how do "all other countries" come into play here?

[freehunter]

What I was inferring from your comment was

What about the americans who move to berlin because they can hardly breathe in the USA anymore? Since this happens, it shows that Berlin is a haven for people who feel oppressed.

That was my interpretation. You also said that the assumption of German strictness was outdated, implying that Germans have become more relaxed. Working with that interpretation, my point was that maybe Germany didn't get better, but the US got worse which by default makes Germany look better. I then implied that using Berlin as the capital of the free doesn't work, since there are more free places even in the EU. Basically: maybe Germany hasn't become more relaxed, but other places have become more strict. If I was looking to escape the tyranny of the US, I wouldn't think of going back home to Germany. The authoritarian nature of the US vs Germany reside on two entirely different and almost incomparable planes.

[Daniel_Newby]

> The authoritarian nature of the US vs Germany reside on two entirely different and almost incomparable planes.

The US is not authoritarian, we are governed by a coalition of tyrants that have coopted the lawful government. The pendulum will swing back any year now when the shiny wears off Washington, D.C.

As for the other commenter's claim about Berlin, imagine this thought experiment: the self-proclaimed Messiah moves to Berlin, marries a gaggle of 16 year old brides, gets them all pregnant, and homeschools the offspring in riflery and Scientology. Would German officials have a violent allergic reaction? Yes! Because it goes outside the privileges they have deigned to grant their flocks. In the US that would be considered bizarre but not a proper matter for state intervention.