[quantadev]

I think the confession that "Figma‑ or Gmail‑class apps still benefit from heavy client logic" is a telling one, and the reason I politely disagree with your thinking is that it relies in the app staying small forever. But that's not what happens. Apps grow and grow and grow.

I've heard people say they just want "Pure JS" with no frameworks at all because frameworks are too complex, for their [currently] small app. So they get an app working, and all is good, right until it hits say 5000 lines of code. Then suddenly you have to re-write it all using a framework and TypeScript to do typing. Better to just start with an approach that scales to infinity, so you never run into the brick wall.

[room271]

The problem is that people are frequently using SPA JS frameworks for things that are clearly not gmail of figma -- i.e. news websites and other sites with minimal interactivity or dynamic behaviour. If you are genuinely building an 'app'-like thing, then of course you need some kind of JS SPA framework, but too often people are reaching for these tools for non-app use cases.

[quantadev]

I say if you have any reactivity whatsoever you need a framework. If you don't your code will be crap, and there's really no getting around that. Once you start doing DOM calls to update GUI you've got a mess on your hands instantly, and it will only get worse over time.

[spenczar5]

Yeah, wouldn't want to rewrite the frontend in a new framework. Good thing the SPA frameworks are so stable and solid; when I choose one I will surely be able to use it for a good, oh, 3 to 6 months.

[dminik]

React hooks came out in 2019. That's 6 years ago. And they are still the way to write client components. Unless you're moving everything to server components (which you most likely can't and shouldn't anyways) you would be writing the same react code for 6 years.

This is just intentional ignorance.

[sensanaty]

We still have Vue 2 apps running strong. Our experimental stuff is on Vue 3, which is backwards compatible with Vue 2 for the most part if you avoided mixins (which even in the Vue 2 days was the common advice).

People who say stuff like this have obviously never actually used modern day FE frameworks, because they have all been very stable for a long while. Yes, APIs change, but that's not unique to JS/frontend, and also nothing really forces you to update with them unless you really need some shiny new feature, and at least IME Vue 3 has been nothing but gold since we got on it.

[quantadev]

I agree. My preference is React, but I've got 4 years of Vue experience and so I know Vue is good too, and mature. There are just some people who are anti-framework entirely, and they're never actual professional web developers, but mostly hobbyists or college dabblers, who've never been involved with a large project, or else they'd know how silly their anti-framework attitude is.

[CooCooCaCha]

This feels sarcastic but in reality ever since react switch to using hooks I’ve largely written the same style of react code for years. You don’t have to live on the edge.

[freeone3000]

The idea that apps can never be done and can never stop adding new features is the key determiner of web bloat. This is the problem.

[quantadev]

Well any non-framework interactive app that ever reaches the point of being "bloated" is necessarily a train wreck, regardless. You can have massive apps that use a framework, and has a good design too. However if you have a massive app without a framework then it's absolutely guaranteed to be a dumpster fire. So frameworks help manage bloat, but lack of frameworks fails completely once the project is large.

[CooCooCaCha]

I’ve been saying this for a long time. It takes very little effort to spin up a react app so there’s little point in starting a project without it or whatever front-end framework you prefer.

As I’ve become more senior I’ve realized that software devs have a tendency to fall for software “best practices” that sound good on paper but they don’t seem to question their practical validity. Separation of concerns, microservices, and pick the best tool for the job are all things I’ve ended up pushing back against.

In this particular case I’d say “pick the best tool for the job” is particularly relevant. Even though this advice is hard to argue against, I think it has a tendency to take developers down the path of unnecessary complexity. Pragmatically it’s usually best to pick a single tool that works decently well for 95% of your use cases instead of a bunch of different tools.

[quantadev]

I agree, just use React from day one. The reality is that web pages are hardly ever perfectly static, and once there's any dynamic nature to it at all you need something like React or else you'll have a train wreck of JS DOM-manipulation calls before you know it. React is perfect. You just update your state and the page magically re-renders. It's a breeze.

[lemonwaterlime]

Multiple times in this thread you have been taking the hardline stance that a framework is always necessary while stating that others are saying the same in the opposite direction. In reality, most people seemingly advocating for non-React are actually saying to start simple and add the complexity where and when it’s needed.

Further, being against a bloated framework is not the same as being against frameworks. Those frameworks are actually principles. It’s possible for a team to come up with or use existing principles without using a framework.

Finally, “always use React” brings other costs. You need a team to build your system twice. That means you need bigger teams; more funding to do the same thing, and so on. You add complexity at the team level and at the software level when using frameworks. The person above you said that blindly “following best practices” is bad while stating a “best practice” of always start with React. That particular “best practice” not always being the best practice is the entire point of this thread.

[CooCooCaCha]

Your reading of my point is very strange. When I said “best practices” I clearly meant the most commonly repeated best practices. If I cast doubt on those best practices then clearly I intend to replace them with other best practices that I think are better, and that’s what I did. And suggesting better practices doesn’t imply that I think people should blindly follow them.

> Most people seemingly advocating for non-React are actually saying to start simple and add the complexity where and when it’s needed.

In my experience that’s actually not the case. That might be what people claim, but in my professional experience some people really don’t like frontend work and they try to avoid frontend frameworks because they think it’ll make their work more tolerable, but what usually happens is they start out “simple” but pretty quickly product requirements come in that are hard to do without some framework, then there’s a scramble to add a framework or hack it into some parts of the app.

[yawaramin]

So there are a couple of problems with your characterization. Firstly, your blanket assumption that people who want to avoid frontend complexity are really just frontend haters. Sure, there are some people who hate 'web shit', but there are many others, like myself, who want to build useful webapps that are as simple and performant as possible. It doesn't make us frontend haters, it just makes us different.

The second assumption where I believe you are going wrong is that 'product requirements' will always come in and force using a framework. Imho if I look around at most of the webapps I am using, very few of them actually need a SPA framework. Take Jira for example. Does it really need to be fully a SPA? It has some highly interactive parts, which could be done with eg web components, but it's mostly a boring CRUD app that would work fine with eg htmx.

[quantadev]

Exactly right. The "start simple and add the complexity where and when it’s needed" is a badly flawed way of thinking, in web apps, because once an app becomes too big to manage without BOTH a framework AND a type-safe language (TypeScript) then it you realize everything you've done up to that point must be reworked line by line, which costs you weeks, and you have to retest everything, and will make mistakes as you try to fix the mess. It's a mess that's easily avoided, just by using a framework from day one.

You can't just switch horses in the middle of the stream. You have to ride back to the ranch, saddle up on a different horse, and restart your entire journey on a better horse.

[quantadev]

I went out of my way to say it's only my preference to use React, but that Vue is fine too. So the thing I have a "hardline stance" (your words) on, if anything, is that a framework should be used for any interactive web app.

Having been a web developer for a quarter century, I know how tempting it is (yes, for small projects) to try to just wing it and do everything without a framework, and I know what a tarpit that way of thinking is. If you disagree, then you were certainly welcome to share you own opinion.

[robertoandred]

> most people seemingly advocating for non-React are actually saying to start simple

This assumes that non-React approaches are simple.

[quantadev]

That's a good point. non-Framework approaches are not simpler actually. It's a tarpit that looks enticing. You think you can keep stuff "simple" by not using a framework, and in only 2 weeks you've got such complexity you're begging for a framework that does it all automatically, which is kinda...ya know...what frameworks are for. lol.

So you delete the non-framework garbage code and start over. lol.

[lazypenguin]

That’s absurd, that’s like saying we should only use C++ for backend code because my CRUD business app might one day scale to infinity. Better be safe than sorry and sling pointers and CMake just in case I need that extra juice!

[quantadev]

imo, even if the only "interactivity" a web app has is just a login page, then even that alone is enough to warrant using a framework rather than doing direct DOM manipulation (or even worse, full page refreshes after a form submit).

It's not about using the most powerful tool always, it's about knowing how to leverage modern standards rather than reinventing and solving problems that are already solved.

[yawaramin]

> ...a web app has is just a login page, then even that alone is enough to warrant using a framework rather than doing direct DOM manipulation (or even worse, full page refreshes

Maybe, but it doesn't necessarily need to be a SPA framework though. There are simpler libraries/frameworks like htmx that considerably reduce complexity and also let you avoid direct DOM manipulation.

[quantadev]

Yeah, the debate about which framework is best is like debating which programming language is best, in that they all have pros and cons, that can be debated endlessly.

However, in general, whatever's most popular is a strong signal (like a crowd-sourced signal) that it's probably indeed "the best" all around, which are two words that can also, of course, be debated endlessly based on one's personal definition of "best".

[willsmith72]

Not really. If you use react router, you can have a client side js app and add SSR with a couple of hours work. You have your cake and eat it