[neckardt]

The problem with mountains is twofold: Many mountains can be climbed without being elite while exposing yourself to major risk, and for some mountains there is objective hazard that can’t be mitigated.

One example of an “easy” but high risk climb is Mt. Rainier in Washington. All you need to go up is a set of crampons and a backpack, no technical mountaineering needed. However the mountain is full of glaciers that can collapse from under you, which has killed many people. Additionally, many have slipped and then slid to their death. In my case, when I attempted Rainier I took a wrong turn at one point and almost walked off a cliff.

Second: Objective Hazard. Objective hazard is risks that cannot be reasonably mitigated. Things like rockfall where a rock breaks off and falls on your head at random, or unpredictable avalanches. Mt Rainier as well has an area called the bowling alley known for its rockfall. The humans are the pins. Rainier also has an area called the icebox where cornices break off and fall into the climbing route. In 1981 the icebox killed 11 people in one day. Those climbers did everything right, but were in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Mountaineering is not the same as other sports. It is sometimes deceptively easy, yet there are risks that simply cannot be mitigated. Any experienced mountaineer can give you a long list of friends they know that have died. That’s the case in few other sports.

[billy99k]

It's the same with base jumping. I remember watching a documentary on it one time and almost all of the people being interviewed knew multiple people that died during a jump.

[amiga386]

They are not the same.

In mountaineering, if something goes wrong, you could die.

In base jumping, if you don't do everything correctly, you will die.

A bit like the difference of a car engine failing (it will roll to a stop) vs an airplane engine failing (you will come down hard on the ground)

[agurk]

An engine failing on an aircraft, especially a light aircraft, is not a guaranteed crash landing. It is a serious situation, however aircraft usually glide well. This means you have opportunities to find somewhere that is adequate for landing. Many aircraft with engine failures have landed safely on airstrips. Interestingly this is also the case with helicopters due to their ability to autorotate.

[the_af]

I think base jumping is slightly closer to suicide.

Or that almost suicidal thing with the wingsuits some people do: I get the appeal, I'm sure the rush of feeling like flying must be incredible, but they are playing Russian roulette.

[ghaff]

Wingsuits aren’t something I really follow. But my understanding it’s an activity that most serious practitioners die sooner or later from a crash/fall.

[sampullman]

It's very dangerous, but I think "most serious practitioners die sooner or later" is an exaggeration. The number I see is 1 death per 500 jumps, which I assume is also biased towards people with less experience.

It might have been true for the pioneers of the sport though.

[the_af]

I (and probably the commenter you're replying to) meant wingsuit BASE jumping, who is considered one of the most dangerous sports in the world. I think it's borderline suicide. I think its practitioners are thrill seekers who want a higher and higher rush, much like an addiction, which has a high chance of killing them.

It's more dangerous than jumping from a plane with a wingsuit.

[sampullman]

I'm under the impression that wing suit base jumping is a lot safer than it was 20 years ago due to design improvements, and I believe that's what the 1 in 500 number I see in a few articles comes from. I could be wrong, but it matches the impression I have from watching a few content creators doing it.

[ghaff]

Yes, I'm basically referring to base jumping in a wingsuit though, as I say, it's not an activity I'm remotely interested in or have much knowledge of beyond some videos. Of course, serious/elite practitioners do quite a lot of jumps.

I read the fatality comment somewhere presumably somewhat authoritative but it was a while back.

[dh2022]

I have been thinking about starting to do air gliding. Is this a dangerous sport? How long does it take to get to glide a few miles? Any pointers pointers (books, videos,etc..) to start up? I live nearby Seattle, WA. Thanks!!!

[mhandley]

When I used to do gliding (sailplane, not hang gliding or paragliding) many years ago, it was not classed as a dangerous sport for insurance purposes. Don't know about the other fields of gliding. General aviation was classed as riskier - I guess glider pilots are more used to the fact that they don't have a working engine!

[bratwurst3000]

edit:// i thought wingsuit gliding was meant.

hehe a friend wants to do it. He has a trainer. The condition was at least 5000 jumps from plane with parachute . then 3 years training with at least 1000 or more jumps from plane or so….. it was hard and demanding be asured. he is elite lvl in sport. i wouldn’t do it. not because of the danger but because the training to do it safe is to hard.

[rufus_foreman]

>> Objective hazard is risks that cannot be reasonably mitigated. Things like rockfall where a rock breaks off and falls on your head at random, or unpredictable avalanches

Those risks can be mitigated. They can't be reduced to zero, but they can be made less severe.

Avalanches don't typically happen randomly out of the blue any more than thunderstorms do in the midwest. In the midwest, you know days ahead of time that there is going to be a risk of thunderstorms the same way that you know days ahead of time when there is going to be a high avalanche risk. You know the amount of recent snowfall, you know what the weather is going to be, and you know how to recognize avalanche terrain.

Rockfall does not occur completely randomly. If you go to a place overlooking something like the bowling alley on a warm summer afternoon, you will see and hear rocks the size of cars or small houses bouncing down the slopes. If you go on a cold winter morning before the sun hits the snow, you won't see or hear that because everything that is frozen in place will stay frozen in place. You choose the time of your climb to mitigate risks from rockfall, avalanches, and weather. Mitigate does not mean reduce to zero.

Yes, mountaineering can be risky. Everyone decides their own level of involvement. Climbing a walkup in bluebird weather has less risk than driving to the grocery store. Attempting to climb K2 kills 25% of the people who do it. Mountaineer's choice. If you've got kids and you try to climb K2, you're selfish and I feel sorry for your kids. If you're a single guy who wants to risk death, go for it.

[LandR]

K2 doesn't kill 25% of people who climb it.

It has a historic fatality ratio of 1 death for every 4 summits. If you have 100 people try to climb it in a season, 4 summits and 1 death you have 25% summit to death ratio, but 99 out of the 100 people survived.

Last year it looks like it had 175 climbers, ~50 summits, and 2 deaths. 2023 had over 100 summits and 1 death.

[rufus_foreman]

Thanks for the clarification.

[ghaff]

You can mitigate to greater or lesser. Kate Matrosova was actually well prepared when she died a few years ago. She should simply have gone out in that forecast

On the other hand, you get into the bigger mountains and it’s a lot harder. To time the weather and other dangers.

[ghaff]

Not gone out of course.

[bombcar]

Same thing exists for GA pilots - they often KNOW they shouldn’t fly into weather, and do so anyway, and then - it’s over!

[terribleperson]

The wonderful thing about aviation is how all this stuff has names. This one's get-there-itis or plan continuation bias.

[stefan_]

Which is why they all carry beacons, so when they fail they can involve others in their folly. Dunno, you wanna leave civilization, that's like a billion dollar risk premium right there.

[bratwurst3000]

this isnt true. I know some alpinist guides and alpinist. beeing one myself. I can remember the story of maximum 3 deaths and they were not even first encounters. If you are a professional its rly rly rare that you die. accidents with injuries can happen for sure and they are way more common.

the mt Everest hast like 300 deaths on 15.000 successful climbs or so. And thats not an easy one and ridiculous elite.

I know guids in the alps and they do 300 alpinist tour day a year. So how come allmost all are alive and their friends etc. For sure they know people that know poeple or colleges that died by accidents , mostly avalanches and loose rocks, but as said rly rly rare.

but on the other hand there are many deaths in the alps every year.

The guy in the post seemed well prepared and smart and shit happens and I am sorry for the lost. Very glad his family got an answer.

[anothereng]

you're right if you like nature go camping or somewhere that you don't have to risk your life imo