[protolif]

"It sounds like a lot of this stuff happens at bars during events, not at the events themselves. How common is this behavior at bars in general, independent from a hacker con?"

This. Very much this. The formula is simple: Get a bunch of people drunk, and the lecherous ones will come out of the woodwork. This is not a problem unique to any particular field. In fact, I would go as far as to say this is a non-problem. If you can't deal with it, then stop choosing to hang out in bars.

Often, it is the women who cry the loudest, that crave and seek out the kind of negative attention described here, so that they can boast about their own attractiveness to other females, while pretending to be disgusted.

There are many more severe forms of oppression, that deserve our attention more than this.

[MichaelSalib]

Please go read the original post and pay special attention to the bit where con security gives out awards for people who run around demanding that women show their tits.

[protolif]

I'd like to see some evidence before believing such a tale. If such punch cards did exist, then I'm sure that there would be a picture of one online. In other words: Screenshot, or it didn't happen.

[KuraFire]

I’d like to give you a yellow card for your tired and sexist casual and nonsensical dismissal of a claim made by a woman about an actual experience she had.

With all the shit women get whenever they raise their voice on these matters, they truly have near-zero incentive to conjure up lies.

Worse, her example of the cards is hardly the worst, most inconceivable thing to be suggested as something that really does happen. Rape and assault really do happen, it's far less difficult to imagine that some guys don't understand how a bingo card with "get a woman to flash her tits at you" is a massive problem and not “just a bit of fun.”

[david_b]

Who says the guy didn't just make stuff up? Do you honestly think that is beyond someone who walks around asking women to show their breasts? In other words: he didn't say she didn't experience it he doubts the veracity of the mans account. As usual that much thought didn't occur to some white knight with his shiny 'sexist' club.

[KuraFire]

Actually, yes he _did_ say he didn’t believe her account of it: “If such punch cards exist…”

[djahng]

What you're saying is this is how men behave and women should either put up with it and stop complaining, or stay home?

[hackinthebochs]

If we're talking about being hit on, then yes: at a bar, no one has the right to not be hit on. If one cannot handle having to fend off unwanted advances in environments where it is appropriate to make your attraction known, then you should stay out of that environment. However, one does have a right to not be harassed. If someone doesn't take no for an answer then they should be handled appropriately.

[ceol]

> at a bar, no one has the right to not be hit on.

Sometimes, people like to go to bars to hang out with their friends or significant others. Believe it or not, entering a bar does not give you the right to run around groping people.

The sexual assault apology in this thread is unbelievable.

[hackinthebochs]

I made sure to qualify the context of my comment to make my points as clear as possible. These strawman arguments that inevitably get trotted out get incredibly tired. You're not going to find too many people around here to fall for that argumentation tactic.

Hitting on != groping people and you damn well know it.

[ceol]

The original article was talking about a woman who was groped and assaulted.

To quote the parent:

> It sounds like a lot of this stuff happens at bars during events, not at the events themselves.

No one started talking about specifically being hit on until you brought it up, so either you were talking about what the woman went through and mistakingly called it "hitting on", which is what I assumed, or you're talking about something unrelated to this discussion, which is apparently what happened. Don't get upset when someone tries to bring your unrelated argument back on topic.

Either way, people don't always go to bars with the intent to get some. Assuming everyone is there for that reason is ridiculous.

[hackinthebochs]

Rereading the conversation chain I admit to misunderstanding the context of this thread. Reading through a bunch of comments I'm sure context bled between threads in my head (HN's pythonesque block comment structure doesn't help matters). Although I qualified my statements very specifically as I anticipated possibly misreading or missing something along the way.

[Dylan16807]

Whoa whoa whoa hold it. 'Hitting on' is not groping or sexual assault. I'm sure you didn't strawman that on purpose but it's still a strawman.

[djahng]

It's pretty clear that the issue at hand is harassment, not merely being hit on.

[hackinthebochs]

I thought the context was established to be hitting on, as one might do in a bar. The problem with framing it as being about "harassment" is that the term is prone to equivocation in these types of discussions. Some would argue that any attention of a sexual nature would be harassment. This is probably true in professional settings, but the grandparent established the context of discussion as a bar setting. This is what I was replying to.

How to handle actual harassment and assault is obvious: you call the fucking cops. I'm not sure why that warrants a discussion at all.

[protolif]

No, what I am saying is this is how drunk people act, and if one finds it too offensive, then the logical conclusion is to remove one's self from the equation, rather than demanding that the world change. You can't boil the ocean.

[demewmew]

There are plenty of bars where, if that's how drunk people act, and the bar staff has any sense, then the drunk people get kicked out. The drunk people get kicked out because it's bad for business, i.e. if people are made to feel unsafe (and I think that's a far better term to use than "are offended") and their only option is to leave, the bar loses the business of many people opting out in favor of one or more drunk assholes. There are some obvious parallels here that, IMHO, only help the argument that bad behavior should be called out and corrected, not seen as a fact of life.

[djahng]

Asking the world to change/ boiling the ocean... Plenty of people get drunk without sticking their hands up women's skirts. The "logical conclusion" is not to remove the women from the equation.

[ahelwer]

I'd like you to consider just how dubious the utility of the "that's just how things are" argument is when it comes to women's issues.