[mindcrime]

It's almost as if when the girl is attracted to the guy, it's flirting, but when she isn't, it's creepy/sexual harassment.

Yep, and that makes it incredibly hard to be a guy. You're almost "damned if you do, damned if you don't" when it comes to flirting and initiating things. Unfortunately, it's almost impossible to know - in advance - how someone is going to react.

That said, there is a line somewhere, of behavior that is never appropriate towards someone that you don't already have an established relationship with. Asking a random female (or male, for that matter) to "come up to my room for a pillowfight" is just stupid in almost every conceivable context.

[gatordan]

I think you should realize your comment - in a thread about counteracting sexual harassment towards women at conferences - is about how incredibly difficult it is to be a man. Nevermind how difficult it must feel to try to fit in as a minority group at a conference only to find yourself sexually harassed by a stranger.

Appreciate how privileged you are when your worry isn't "i hope some random man doesn't try to grab my ass" but instead "how am i supposed to know if this random woman wants me to grab her ass?". Is it really that difficult to be a guy? Is the line of sexual harassment (especially in the context of the articles examples) really that hard to figure out?

[mindcrime]

I think you should realize your comment - in a thread about counteracting sexual harassment towards women at conferences - is about how incredibly difficult it is to be a man.

Yes, I'm fully aware of that. I believe that part of solving the larger problem here involves both sexes having a better understanding of the position of the other. This is not as simple as "guys suck, you all need to change."

Nevermind how difficult it must feel to try to fit in as a minority group at a conference only to find yourself sexually harassed by a stranger.

Sexual harassment sucks whether you're a minority or not. I'm very sympathetic to the plight of women at conferences (and elsewhere) but not going to sit here and apologize for being male either.

Appreciate how privileged you are when your worry isn't "i hope some random man doesn't try to grab my ass" but instead "how am i supposed to know if this random woman wants me to grab her ass?".

Meh. We all have our own crosses to bear.

Is it really that difficult to be a guy?

Absolutely.

Is the line of sexual harassment (especially in the context of the articles examples) really that hard to figure out?

In the context of the examples cited in this article, I'd say "no." Which, if you read my original comment, I'd already made that point. In the more general sense, the absolutely is pretty much "it depends." Men have absolutely been accused of "harassment" for behavior that other people (including other women) would shake their heads at and go "WTF? That's not harassment at all." There's definitely an element of subjectivity in all this.

[ceol]

Compared to being a woman, it is not difficult to be a guy. I'm not sure how you can look at this article about how so many women get sexually assaulted or harassed at tech conventions and think, "It's so tough being a guy."

Not all women are looking for a hookup every time they leave their house. If you hit on a girl at a convention, and she thinks you're creepy, it's your fault. You shouldn't be hitting on her.

You might come back with, "But what about all those girls who say it's creepy for one guy to hit on them but it's attractive for another? How am I supposed to know if I'm the creepy guy or not?"

To which I would reply... How many times has that happened to you? How many times have you been called creepy by a gal at a bar only to have her run off with another, more attractive guy who gave her the same exact line? I'd guess that happens pretty rarely, right? Maybe never?

[mindcrime]

Compared to being a woman, it is not difficult to be a guy.

I don't know about you, but I'm not trying to make any such comparison. Nor do I find it to be relevant. This isn't about "is it harder to be a guy or a girl," it's about the fact that it's tough to be a guy OR a girl. IOW, women aren't the only ones who have challenges when it comes to dealing with the opposite sex. And I don't believe it makes sense to look at the challenges that either sex has, in a vacuum. We're all in this together. We need more shared understanding that goes in both directions, not more antagonism.

[KuraFire]

No dude, it’s fucking easy being a guy, twice so if you’re white, three times so if you’re straight. In fact, that’s so true it has come to be known as The Lowest Difficulty Setting There Is: http://whatever.scalzi.com/2012/05/15/straight-white-male-th...

You cannot argue that “it’s tough being a guy” and then say you weren’t comparing it to being a woman. What the hell else were you comparing it to, being a Tyrannosaurus? However tough you may think your position in life is, chances are pretty high you’re living it on The Lowest Difficulty Setting There Is.

[mindcrime]

You cannot argue that “it’s tough being a guy” and then say you weren’t comparing it to being a woman.

Actually, I just did.

What the hell else were you comparing it to, being a Tyrannosaurus?

I wasn't comparing it to anything.

However tough you may think your position in life is, chances are pretty high you’re living it on The Lowest Difficulty Setting There Is.

Great, that's not something I can control, now is it? Of course I have empathy for people on all the other difficulty levels, and want to help make things better for them. But I still have my own problems regardless of how easy anyone else thinks my life is.

Of course, none of this is really relevant to the conversation that started all this, and I'll probably regret replying to this comment later.

Again, to reiterate what I said before... what we need is more shared understanding, that goes both ways, and less antagonism.

[ceol]

If you aren't trying to make such a comparison, why did you state that in the first place? It's meaningless to state everyone has it difficult when talking about how a specific group has it a bit more difficult.

Yes, men have problems too, but we're not talking about them right now. This is about how women are treated in tech.

[EvanKelly]

Every single example in the article was out of line and simply never appropriate.

I'm willing to believe that maybe some of these men simply do not understand the difference between confidence and assertiveness and straight-up sexual harassment. If the guys are truly ignorant to the rudeness of their actions, the red/yellow/green card should have a very positive effect.

[Symmetry]

The line is going to vary depending on the personality of the person you're trying to flirt with and how attractive they find you. That's just the way it is. This is why you flirt in a civilized manner first, and look for signs that they are or are not interested. And if you're paying attention you ought to notice if you make them uncomfortable, and apologize.

[colmvp]

"And if you're paying attention you ought to notice if you make them uncomfortable, and apologize."

I don't think you need to apologize. Their uncomfortable demeanor could be brought on by lack of attraction rather than offensive behavior (assault/harassment), in which case their negative reaction will be a clear sign to get out.

[mindcrime]

This is why you flirt in a civilized manner first, and look for signs that they are or are not interested.

Yeah, it's easy enough to simply be polite, throw out some very casual flirting, and the see if the other person responds in kind. If they don't, don't try to escalate the encounter. Somehow this seems to escape an awful lot of people for some reason...

[Symmetry]

Yup. Geeks (male and female) can be dense about flirting at times, though. I'd like to think that I'm more perceptive nowadays, but when I was a sophomore in college I was asked out and taken on a date without realizing it, for instance. So be aware that they might just be really enjoying the conversation and not realizing that you're trying to flirt. Which doesn't even mean they wouldn't be happy to flirt back if they realized how things were! So again, just always be willing to revise your assumptions about the situation, and always be polite and be ready to back out if you misread things.

[Shoomz]

Really..."damned if you do, damned if you don't"? There are easy ways to approach women without worrying if you've crossed the line on your initial remarks. While you might have to be a mind-reader, at times, to know if they like you, you certainly don't have to be psychic to know if your remarks are offensive or rude.

[mindcrime]

Agreed. I was generalizing out of haste, since I didn't (and don't) have time to write a manifesto. :-)

[illuminate]

Or your understanding is limited to hasty generalizations.

[recycleme]

It's even worse to start invading someone's personal space.

That said, not all women will automatically assume you are creepy just because they are not attracted to you.

[sophacles]

Most people will not find you creepy because they are not attracted to you. Most people will not find it creepy if you flirt and they are not attracted. They will find it creepy if they don't respond to the flirting and you continue to do so. They will also find it creepy if you start from a position that doesn't leave them an option to politely disengage from flirtation (e.g. starting with "want to fuck?" is creepy because it gives no chance to the other person to participate in what should be a mutual escalation of attraction - that you have already decided their level of comfort with the notion is a personal boundary violation).

[fallenhitokiri]

I have never seen one women who, after a smile and eye contact, was offended or disgusted by an invitation to a drink. No matter if she was interested or not - the only point after that is accepting a "no thank you".

It is not hard to be a man if you just act polite but still purposive <sarcasm>just don't try to fondle her before you said "hi".</sarcasm>

I know it is neither easy nor fun, especially if there are social phobias involved, but it is definitely not hard to be a guy trying to flirt with a women. Maybe uncomfortable, but rumors are, that women who try to flirt with a man have the exact same problems.

[ahelwer]

Holy moly. I think you need to take a good look at this blog post, and all the blog posts it links:

http://captainawkward.com/2012/08/11/the-c-word/

Hopefully this read will clear some stuff up. You need to lose the victim complex.

[mindcrime]

Hopefully this read will clear some stuff up. You need to lose the victim complex.

LOL... based on that alone, I don't think I'm going to waste any of my time on the link you posted. Pointing out that both sexes have their own set of challenges, and refusing to toe the "women are good, men are bad" line is hardly having a "victim complex."

[ahelwer]

Oh sure, all sexes have their challenges. However, the particular case you bring up has been thoroughly debunked time and time again. It is annoyingly pervasive.