[godelski]

Imagine if we talked about other computers like we talked about phones. It's just so weird

  - you can only install programs from our approved package manager
  - if you make any transactions through your program, we'll take a 30% cut
  - you can't be access those files, you're not root
    - you got root?! We're going to fucking sue you (yeah, I know about the PS3...)
  - you can't change these settings
  - you can't access that hardware

Why did we think this was a good idea? Smartphones aren't "smart" without the apps! These companies depend on developers. The developers gave them the "food" that allowed them to grow so big. They only gain from developers! They would still gain even if every developer cost them money. How the fuck do we think they got to be trillion dollar entities in the first place?!

These companies have turned into scorpions[0]. It's myopic and they'll scream about how they're dying even though it's their own damn fault. These aren't just unavoidable things that are leading them to their deaths, but unreasonable. Foregoing larger future rewards (crossing the river) for short term ones (stinging).

It is insanity. Especially as we often try to justify it

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Scorpion_and_the_Frog

[xg15]

> Why did we think this was a good idea?

Who is "we"? I think this had always been the wet dream of corporate types, not the users. In the PC space there are too many existing ecosystems to implement that kind of control (through Microsoft certainly tried with the whole "trusted computing" stuff) but as soon as there was an opportunity for a popular new "blue ocean" platform, they jumped.

You could see this most blatancy with ARM tablets. Microsoft released two versions of Windows, one for x86, one for ARM. The x86 one allowed installation of regular programs, the ARM version was restricted to Store apps. Made no sense from a technical perspective, the only reason is that they could.

[godelski]

  > Who is "we"?

We doesn't necessitate me[0]

But my point is that the strategy is illogical even when one is simply profit maximizing. You get short term gains but they prevent future games. It need not even be that far in the future. See the iterative prisoners dilemma for a simple example. Defecting will get you higher reward in one round but if there are any further iterations then your rewards are lower.

That's myopia. And I'm not satisfied with any "it's just it is" style arguments because we (inclusive) are ultimately the ones who decide how things are. It's a collective decision, a society. And that's why I press, because we can all do better. A rising tide lifts all ships, kings and peasants alike.

[0] https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/editorial_we

[theamk]

This only applies to iPhones, most Androids are rootable, and even un-rooted, it is trivial (I am mean really trivial, like 3 clicks) to install programs from outside of app store.

My opinion is anyone who owns iPhone knows what they sign up for, and does not care. So I don't get your rant.

- Do you own iPhone? Well, you've made your bed, now lie in it. There are hundreds, if not thousands, of phones on the market - if you chose one without 3rd party app store, it's on you.

- Do you own Android? You have nothing to complain about, push any apks you want anytime. Hey, get Samsung - it comes with 2nd app store preinstalled (from Samsung of course). Maybe even root the phone if you want to.

(Note the GP mentions "MDM", and that's why they could not use this route. MDM means corporate security, and they apparently made a rule to block 3rd party installs. This is sad, and I feel for them... but this is a corporate problem, regular users are not affected)

- Are you complaining on behalf of other people? They are all adults and made their own choice. If you want to make a difference, advocate against Apple. Or even better, advocate for regulations against Apple, to make their products worse so that more people move to Androids.

[Timon3]

> This only applies to iPhones, most Androids are rootable, [...]

Except that this breaks SafetyNet, which makes a bunch of applications important for my daily life (e.g. my banking app) suddenly no longer work. Sure, clever people find workarounds for this issue, but they are not supposed to work. They are treated as vulnerabilities that are actively "fixed", so it's a cat-and-mouse game that can break with any update. This means I effectively have the choice between a device I control, and a device that's useful in my daily life, I can't have both.

This is obviously a much worse situation than on desktop computers.

[jonathanstrange]

These kind of barriers don't concern end users directly. They're just a huge pain point for developers, especially developers who don't make their software for commercial purposes only. The harder it is to develop, publish, and maintain an app, the less cool projects are being developed and the less innovation you get.

Nobody can quantify how much these practices stifle innovation because there are plenty of app developers and there is no comparison to how the app landscape would look if there were less barriers. Perhaps it's not a big deal but the fact is that nobody knows...

[godelski]

  > most Androids are rootable

I don't have to wipe my computer to gain root nor distro hop.

  > So I don't get your rant.

I think you will if you understand my list of examples are non-exhaustive. Similarly if you are willing to admit that needing to hack your device is not a counter-example, it supports my point. I can also "jailbreak" an iPhone. I can install linux on it too. A circumvention method not being known for a current or specific generation is not a counter.

My point has nothing to do with what you "can" do. It has everything to do with the need for such efforts in the first place.

[cosmic_cheese]

On one hand much of this is valid, but on the other many of the conveniences that desktop devs are accustomed to are increasingly questionable and ill-suited for the modern era.

Perhaps the most problematic aspect is the way that PC apps have traditionally been granted access to any resource at any time without question, with the largest obstacle being the occasional need for an admin password or UAC prompt. It’s been a chronic point of abuse by third party developers, with some of the giants like Adobe being among the worst (using a third party uninstaller after installing Creative Cloud is like shining a backlight in a hotel room). Third party programs must be treated as somewhat adversarial in order to make sure that the user maintains control and knows exactly what the software they’re using is doing.

So yes, mobile operating systems have been abusive, but at the same time desktop operating systems have been negligent and expanding third party app carte blanche to mobile apps is not the way forward.

[pjmlp]

We do, game consoles, video players, blue ray players, before phones, PDAs were already like that.

Also during the 8 and 16 bit days, all home computers were vertical integrated, outside external expansion ports the only way to upgrade either the software or hardware was to buy a new computer. Sounds familiar?

An improved experience required a whole new package.

The only exception was the PC clones market, that only happened, because IBM failed to prevent it, and they did try to regain control with the MCA design that naturally failed after the pandora box got opened.

Ironically with desktops now being a niche market, we are getting back to those days.

[godelski]

  > We do, game consoles, video players, blue ray players, before phones, PDAs were already like that.

For videogames I seem to remember a pretty big lawsuit... [0]. I seem to remember this being a thing and a few times.

While I agree with video players (including blue ray), and PDAs, these weren't ever general purpose machines. People could hack them to do more things, but that was much more in the true sense of the word "making it do what it was never designed to do". Nor were many game consoles, though they are now. There really weren't that many protections in them either tbh. Definitely not on the scale today. I don't like it, but I also don't think we should act like these things are perfectly equal.

But, so what? Does that change my point? I don't think my argument only applies to phones. The reason I used phones as the talking point was because the article we're in a thread talking about and a phone is a general purpose computer that now everyone has in their pockets. I do think we should be careful to not undermine ourselves. How can we get things to change if we're also just saying "that's the way it is"?

[0] https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2016/06/if-you-used-to-r...

[ryu2k2]

Don't worry. The time when our computers will be locked down the same way will come in our life time.

[fluidcruft]

Rent seekers gonna rent seek.

[godelski]

Scorpions gonna scorpion

But I'm not willing to let that be the answer. It's a thought terminating clique

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thought-terminating_clich%C3%A...

[fluidcruft]

One man's cliche is another man's razor.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophical_razor

[godelski]

Mine is Hume's Guillotine.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Is%E2%80%93ought_problem

[fluidcruft]

I didn't know about that one. Thank you!

[mig39]

It sounds like game consoles :-(

[BobaFloutist]

At least your bank, school, apartment, and airline aren't locking core services behind carrying a fucking PlayStation around with you.

Consoles feel different because they're one-purpose machines. Sure, it's irritating if they hardcore a maximum fps or what have you, but it feels less offensive for them to be locked down.

It's kind of like the difference of Disneyland having weird, restrictive, draconian rules versus just a public park. Which is also one of two brands of public parks in your city. That you also have to use to deposit checks.

[godelski]

  > It sounds like game consoles :-(

  >>  - you got root?! We're going to fucking sue you (yeah, I know about the PS3...)

It was wrong then too https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2016/06/if-you-used-to-r...

[autoexec]

> Imagine if we talked about other computers like we talked about phones. I

That's the goal for PCs too. Windows is already partway there and they keep pushing.