[eesmith]

Point taken.

Please tell me where these minimum wage food preparation and serving-related workers are working then.

I can tell you don't live in California, where McDonalds pays a minimum of $20/hr.

I can tell you don't live in West Virginia, where McDonald's averages about $10/hr.

McDonalds isn't the only fast food place.

[bpodgursky]

?

They are waiters at non-fast-food restaurants and bars who make a nominal $2.50/hr and take most of their income in tips. I was very clear about this. I don't understand what's confusing.

[eesmith]

Of those nearly 8 in 10 workers, how many are in tipped positions?

[bpodgursky]

https://www.bls.gov/opub/reports/minimum-wage/2023/

539,000/869,000 are food service employees under minimum wage.

Payment under min wage is only legal if they net above min wage after tips.

[eesmith]

There's a fair bit of caveats in that report:

> The estimates of workers paid at or below the federal minimum wage are based solely on the hourly wage that respondents report (which does not include overtime pay, tips, or commissions). It should be noted that some respondents might round their hourly earnings when answering survey questions. As a result, some workers might be reported as having hourly earnings above or below the federal minimum wage when, in fact, they earn the minimum wage.

> Some workers reported as earning at or below the prevailing federal minimum wage may not in fact be covered by federal or state minimum wage laws because of exclusions and exemptions in the statutes. Thus, the presence of workers with hourly earnings below the federal minimum wage does not necessarily indicate violations of the FLSA or state statutes in cases where such standards apply.

I don't think you can easily conclude that all those employees must be tipped.

[bpodgursky]

Listen, everything is staring you in the face. You can live in whatever reality you want, but the market rate for labor is not $7.25 anywhere in the country. Nobody has any reason to tolerate federal minimum wage, and they don't.

You can try to find poke holes in reports to find caveats that oh maybe there are food service employees actually rounding down and making min wage, but it doesn't change the reality that there aren't.

You cannot in real life find a real person making $7.25 in a restaurant, because they aren't. Arguing about it on HN doesn't change that reality.

[eesmith]

> the market rate for labor is not $7.25 anywhere in the country

Here are a couple of restaurants where the feds found they broken the federal minimum wage law, from last fall.

https://www.dol.gov/newsroom/releases/sol/sol20241220

"Court orders 3 West Michigan taco restaurants to pay $823K in back wages, damages to 177 workers shortchanged minimum wage, overtime"

"... concluding that the restaurants operated an illegal tip pool that led to violations of federal minimum wage and overtime regulations."

"the court found the employers ... Failed to pay tipped employees the federal minimum wage of $7.25 per hour."

https://www.dol.gov/newsroom/releases/whd/whd20241121

"US Department of Labor recovers $87K in back wages, damages from New Port Richey restaurant for 21 workers denied minimum wage, overtime"

"U.S. Department of Labor Wage and Hour Division investigators found the restaurant required employees to purchase a uniform shirt, which caused their average weekly wages to fall below the federal minimum wage"

That site lists more, and I'm sure they aren't the only organization which does these investigations.