[jonahrd]

this is actually exactly what has been happening over the past few decades, and with the current proposal, for HSR from Toronto to Montreal, two of the largest cities in terms of both population and economy in Canada.

Ottawa felt excluded, and is where the federal govt is based, so instead of going along the 401, a straight highway that follows a river valley and lake and has existing rail corridors, it has to go from Montreal to Ottawa (a short stretch also along a river) and then cut from Ottawa to Toronto via Peterborough, which requires new track, fixing old windy track to allow HSR, some sections have to be speed limited, and has to build through hills and dense forest.

Also, Quebec feels that they don't get "enough" out of the project connecting their largest city to another economic powerhub, so it of course also has to be extended the extra 250km to Quebec city (luckily along a river)

The logical method would be to build Toronto to Montreal 30 years ago, then build a branch to Ottawa one day, and an extension to Quebec another day. The Canadian economy would probably be much stronger if that was the case.

Or we can just wait 30 more years and have this project not be implemented.

[ergsef]

The fact is that politicians are insanely car-brained and nobody has any enthusiasm for improving rail infrastructure. Via Rail is trapped in this insane spiral of service cuts where it's miserable for staff and riders, and the solution is to cut more to make up for declining ridership.

The new HSR is only happening because with the innovation of P3 deals the government can pay for the project but give all the profits to their private-sector pals. Suddenly investing in public infrastructure is appealing again (as long as the public doesn't actually get to own it!)

[api]

Cars employ more people.

A lot of the opposition you hear from EVs comes from the fact that they require less maintenance and upkeep and so they employ fewer people.

[nayuki]

Make-work is not a virtue - see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parable_of_the_broken_window . People want transportation, not necessarily cars.

Cars also contribute to an immense amount of misery in society - the financial burden, being stuck in traffic, road expansions demolishing houses, noise and pollution, injuries.

[api]

I wasn't saying it was good, just pointing out a reason politicians support them. Jobs and tax base gets politicians elected.

[Der_Einzige]

A lot of being "car brained" is because even the best transit sucks compared to a Taxi.

People objectively don't want to share space with the masses. Even in Singapore or Japan, the stress of being in crowds is simply not worth it. Its slower, requires far more mental energy to plan your route, and requires a lot of physical movement which is hard for fatass americans.

Especially when America has quite cheap, awesomely fast and fun cars (your local C8 Corvette can be had for 15% off MSRP from the factory right now).

Cars are freedom. Mass transit is biopolitics/biopower. Big ass off road capable trucks literally don't even need roads.

[tpdly]

How does 'stress of being in crowds' in big cities indicate all those people would prefer to drive? Is stuck in traffic not the 'stress of being in crowds'?

The stress of 2 ton machines flying around at 120 km/hr and operated by the angry and impatient-- that is simply not worth it. You think automated trains with 2 minute headways in a network covering 85% of local journeys at $3/ride would be worse than a Taxi at $1/minute with traffic?!!

A lot of being "car brained" is not realizing that even decent transit by global standards would be far far better than the subsidized freeway only-if-you-can-drive $8,000/year horrorshow of the US/Canada. No one's going to take away your fun cars, but a system maximizing freedom needs to account for the young, old, disabled, drunk, poor, and motivated to read instead of drive. Mass transit is freedom. Cars are consumption-politics/corporate-power.

[JambalayaJimbo]

>requires more mental energy to plan your route

It’s unarguable that driving requires more mental energy. Which is exactly why we have licensing, sobriety requirements, age floors and limits, etc.

Route planning itself is a mostly solved problem for an average pedestrian in any developed city. You type in your destination in maps and go.

Cars are only freedom to able bodied people of a certain financial means and age. Or when you live rurally. To everyone else in a city, they make it harder to get around.

[01HNNWZ0MV43FF]

If gasoline was sold for a fair price, cars would be reduced to a novelty within a generation

[Der_Einzige]

You should go to the third world and see how much cheaper gas is there.

A lot of third world countries exist almost entierly off of gas subsidies from the government. Go look at what Libyans paid per liter of gas during the Gadaffi years.

Americans already pay a "fair price". No, no one in the world properly accounts for "externalities" of consumption.

[rangestransform]

Is it so wrong that we elect politicians to preserve our desired lifestyle?

[aylmao]

The amount of conversation around this is testament it's not everyone's desired lifestyle.

[petesergeant]

This is every attempt to improve a software project in a corporation ever… Small QoL fix gets pushed off because “the big rewrite work will fix it anyway” and five years later the small fix still hasn’t been done.

[thehappypm]

I’m sorry I don’t really see the problem with this, connecting Toronto, Ottawa, Montreal, and Quebec city seems like a pretty reasonable route

[WalterBright]

The problem is it doesn't get built.

[bombcar]

Exactly. A huge part of these projects is proving to the public the value. So even a short, direct line is useful - as some will start to use it and then extending it becomes a simple "this thing we have is good, it should be good more."

[jltsiren]

But the short direct line might also not get built, if the projections show passenger volume will not be high enough to justify the costs.

Passenger rail has high fixed costs and low marginal costs. Even with high-speed rail, you generally want to maximize the number of passengers rather than speed. Making detours to nearby major cities often makes sense, while stopping at smaller cities the route already passes through might not.

A direct connection between Toronto and Montreal would serve one pair of major cities, while a Toronto – Ottawa – Montreal – Quebec City route would serve six. The longer route could be economically more viable, even if the costs are twice as high, as the number of potential passengers is much higher.

[jonahrd]

I know this is super late and nobody will likely see it, but the population of Quebec + Ottawa together is 18% of the population of Montreal + Toronto.

And the amount of track to connect the 4 cities together is double the simple Montreal-Toronto route -- on paper. In reality it's much larger, because most of the track along the Montreal-Toronto corridor is useable for HSR, but the proposed Ottawa-Toronto stretch is the one that needs a lot of new track.

There already are trains connecting to all of these cities, so HSR would still benefit people trying to get from, say, Toronto to Quebec City (the current rail service has a ~30 min stop in Montreal anyway, a transfer wouldn't add any real delay in that respect, and you'd cut down several hours of the journey with HSR service for the first leg). I'm simply saying that it would be great to just lay the damn track for HSR between the two largest Canadian cities, and deal with the smaller ones down the road.

[Kon-Peki]

At the high level, it made huge sense to create a Toronto - Ottawa - Montreal -QC route.

Up until a few months ago, the plan was to create a new link between Toronto/Detroit/Chicago and upgrade the links between Toronto/New York City and Montreal/New York City. In this previous world view in which we were all friends, getting as many larger Canadian cities as possible connected to this rail network was worth the cost.

[stuaxo]

That will come round again in the future.

[aylmao]

> passenger volume will not be high enough to justify the costs.

Roads generally don't pay for themselves

[newsclues]

Spending money on projects that never get built is the kind of job that never ends.

Great for former government employees who want to be a consultant.

No one is accountable for the waste so politicians can just promise to spend more next time.

[drpgq]

I was surprised to find out it was going the Peterborough route. Didn't make a lot of sense.