[janalsncm]

I hate tipping. The last think I want to do after eating is math. And don’t get me started on the inefficient payment ritual we have to endure: flag down the waiter for the check, wait for the check, wait for them to take your cc, wait for them to ring it up and bring it back, then do some math. Unnecessary.

That said, minimum wage is minimum wage. If an employee doesn’t make that up in tips, the law is that the restaurant needs to make up the difference. So it’s a complete non sequitur that $2/hour isn’t a living wage.

If that isn’t happening, the article is burying the lede: the problem isn’t tipping, it’s rampant wage theft. And I don’t need the complete history of tipping to know that wage theft is bad.

[throw310822]

> I hate tipping. The last think I want to do after eating is math

The math is not the problem. The problem is that it's a unspecified amount, therefore it's up to you to decide on the spot how much to pay the person in front of you. This creates a social pressure towards paying more, and the results are obvious: the expected tip keeps rising- and in fact it's already reached completely absurd levels.

[testing22321]

Tipping is a disgusting practice of making others into servants.

It goes like this:

I have lots of money, you do not. if you wait on me hand and foot in just the right way and if I like it just right I might give you some money. Or not. But you have to dance to find out.

Utterly disgusting, and of course it is normal in a country with severe income disparity - people who have so much money they can waive it around to get people to dance for them while the people dancing don’t even have healthcare, maternity leave or other basic human rights.

The fact some establishments require female servers with certain physical attributes to dress in extremely skimpy clothing just reinforces this. It’s utterly vile.

(Some people will point out this is just like work and pay on general, but there are laws in place forcing the employer to pay a certain amount for a given amount of work. Not so with tipping)

[janalsncm]

Hooters could still exist if the waitresses were paid a salary or an hourly rate. Tipping isn’t the problem.

> there are laws in place forcing the employer to pay a certain amount for a given amount of work. Not so with tipping.

The laws apply a minimum pay to a fixed amount of time working. Not an amount of work. If you do 2x the amount of work as a coworker in the same amount of time, you will be paid the same.

I think you might also be confusing tipped minimum wage with actual minimum wage, and I think the article did no one any favors there.

[testing22321]

> Hooters could still exist if the waitresses were paid a salary or an hourly rate. Tipping isn’t the problem.

There are two problems. Requiring an employee to wear extremely skimpy clothing, and tipping.

> I think you might also be confusing tipped minimum wage with actual minimum wage, and I think the article did no one any favors there.*

I am not, I understand the difference perfectly.

[gnopgnip]

An employer only needs to pay more if tips don’t make up minimum wage over the pay period. So that 2x 30 mins every shift spent cleaning is paid at $2.13 an hour

[janalsncm]

It’s still paid at a minimum of 7.25 per hour. Yeah cleaning time increases the denominator for the overall pay rate but I see the issue more as 7.25 is way too low or COL is too high.

Put another way, if a waiter gets zero tips their pay calculation reduces to what a fast food worker makes.

[throw310822]

I don't understand, what's the pay period? One day? Doesn't it mean that they're paid at least the minimum wage per day?

[Taek]

Usually 2 weeks.

[throw310822]

Thanks. Does this basically mean that waiters are entirely free for restaurants and cafes (as I doubt any fails to reach the minimum wage in tips)?

[NoahKAndrews]

The $2.13 they mentioned is the minimum hourly rate the restaurant has to pay in that circumstance (federally, it varies by state)

[NoahKAndrews]

See https://www.dol.gov/agencies/whd/state/minimum-wage/tipped for the minimums in each state

[throwup238]

> And don’t get me started on the inefficient payment ritual we have to endure: flag down the waiter for the check, wait for the check, wait for them to take your cc, wait for them to ring it up and bring it back, then do some math. Unnecessary.

Most of the sit down restaurants I frequent now use mobile pay terminals so at least that bit is less awkward. They leave the terminal at the table and leave, so you can pay at your leisure.

[mbirth]

Pizza Express here in the UK has the best model IMHO. While ordering works as usual and you still have the option of paying the traditional way, you can also use their app. Select the restaurant, type in your table number and you’ll see what you had ordered and can pay for it. It even has options to split the bill.

No need to flag down a waiter, tell them you want to pay, yes, by card, and then watch him getting flagged down by 5 other guests until he makes it back to you with the card reader 10 minutes later.

[thfuran]

Wage theft is rampant. Something like $10-20 billion a year in the US.

[janalsncm]

I totally believe it, which is why my main gripe with the article is that it spends so much time talking about why tipping culture is disrespectful that it essentially glasses over the wage theft it enables.

It also muddies the waters around tipped minimum wage and minimum wage in unhelpful ways. You can see many people in this thread are confused about it.

A more helpful thesis would be tipping leads to wage theft which is bad.

[thfuran]

It's also bad because the list price should be the actual price. It only seems normal because all the stores in the US also don't list tax in the price.

[sans_souse]

Ok but, do you tip? Or, you hate tipping so you just don't do it?

[janalsncm]

I tip a flat 20% at sit down places. Which is why I hate the whole ritual designed around tipping. It’s a waste of time.

[tptacek]

Servers at a lot of restaurants don't expect to make minimum wage, so don't let "the owners will have have to true comp up to minimum wage" function as an excuse not to tip. If you don't want to tip, don't dine at full-service restaurants in America.

[conductr]

Servers are typically loving the current state because they frequently make way more than minimum wage(after tips). They all know they’d make the equivalent of back of house/fast food wages if the employer was paying it in full.

Despite this the general attitude is such that most people are cheap for anything less than ~20%, I’ve heard that even the servers running the take out stand expect these types of tips. The sense of entitlement is crazy, it’s such a low skill job and I’m so rarely actually impressed by the service or even attention I receive (there’s a general/generational degradation of all service that’s occurred in past say 15-20 years).

[rocqua]

Yes, for some people the current situation works great.

But for plenty of others, the current situation sees them being exploited and payed less than minimum wage. It isnt a rare few either. I'm not okay with a situation where a large group is being exploited below the poverty line, just because it works out better for another large group.

[amrocha]

Nobody gets paid less than minimum wage. The employer needs to make up that difference if tips don’t cover it.

[conductr]

Agree. I think this is nearly an imaginary problem. Although plenty of crappy restaurant owners and the economics of the industry make scamming employees an occasional occurrence. Thankfully all those employees usually have the ability to pick up a new job anytime anywhere. So, it’s not like we have a perpetually entrapped underclass of people getting paid peanuts and being exploited

[rocqua]

And all employees know of those rights, and all employers freely give them?

Personally, I don't believe that at all. I do conceed that, if this were the case, things would be fine.

[amrocha]

I think employees know about it, but don’t say anything because it marks you as a low performer, and it’s very easy to fire low performers.

At the same time, employees know that tips are incredibly lucrative for them, and would rather have a sub minimum wage day every once in a while for the on average above minimum wage pay. There’s a reason servers don’t want to get rid of tips.

That being said, none of this is my problem as a customer. If you choose not to pursue your rights that’s on you at the end of the day. I’m not going to feel bad that your scheme to have me subsidize your wages failed.

[janalsncm]

I think they are saying that employers are breaking the law.

[amrocha]

Ok, so bring it up with the NLRB.

[netfortius]

So here you are w/the American society: blame one category of people (in this case consumers) for when another category doesn't benefit of a minimum for subsistence.

[lcnPylGDnU4H9OF]

> If you don't want to tip, don't dine at full-service restaurants in America.

Whenever I dine at such a place, I give a 100% tip because it’s easier math and it incentivizes me not to patronize such businesses. (I only go with friends and I never make the suggestion.) Just saying that because I disagree with this perspective; do go to these restaurants and don’t tip if that is your choice.

Tipping used to be a gratuity. It’s a way to say, “Your effort was exceptional and I want to show you how grateful I am for it.” Tips are no longer exceptions, nor gratuitous: they have become an obligation, as you say. I reject this; I am not responsible for the wage of someone I did not hire. I’m not even responsible for the success of the business, except that I owe them what I agreed to pay when I ordered. It’s like every restaurant prices their menu incorrectly and they expect their customers to correct them.

(There is a Prisoner’s Dilemma for the restaurants: if I start paying my staff well, I have to raise (advertised) prices but people still think tipping is necessary so they’ll see my increased prices in that context and be more likely to go to one of my competitors. I don’t mean to say restaurant owners have an easy out, just that the answer to patronize these businesses regularly, while also tipping generously, perpetuates the situation.)

Is it wrong for someone to order carryout from such a full-service restaurant and not tip? If so, what would they be tipping for? If not, how does the wait staff get paid from the order when they’re primarily paid with tips?

[janalsncm]

There is a restaurant I ate at recently that applied an automatic 20% gratuity to the bill instead of requiring a tip, which I liked because it didn’t require math on my part.

It’s not quite “the price you see is the price you pay” but it’s progress.

[lcnPylGDnU4H9OF]

Agreed. I’ve experienced similar things with large groups at some restaurants and it was welcome if for no reason other than it being an improvement. I’d only caveat that they should to be upfront about it to avoid accidental double tips.