[blinky81]

I cannot for the life of me understand why Americans have such a problem with other people coming here to seek a better life. Half this country has been tricked into seeing hardworking immigrants as a threat to their safety and livelihood — but by all metrics, immigrants are a net positive to society.

I also take issue with the idea that this extreme exclusionary mindset is somehow new to America. A lot of people frame what’s happening as if it’s the first time this country has gone through this. There is a long and storied tradition of otherizing, deporting, and imprisoning. Going back to our very foundation — America was born out of a process of expelling Native people from their lands. Then there’s the Great Migration period and the intense reaction to it, the Palmer raids, FDR’s internment camps, Eisenhower’s deportations, McCarthy era “anti-communism”, mass incarceration as a reaction to the Civil Rights Act, Islamophobia, and now this aggressively right wing anti-immigration sentiment.

The people of America, unfortunately, are prone to drastically evil actions when they are tricked by opportunistic political actors into believing their way of life is somehow under attack. This cycle has been going on for a long time.

[koolba]

> I cannot for the life of me understand why Americans have such a problem with other people coming here to seek a better life. Half this country has been tricked into seeing hardworking immigrants as a threat to their safety and livelihood — but by all metrics, immigrants are a net positive to society.

I have no issue with legal immigration. Far from it, I’m in favor of attracting the best, brightest, and most hard working.

But knowing people overseas that want to come to the USA but are respectful enough to want to do it legally, I take issue with anyone that enters the country illegally. They’re cheating the system and showing immediate disdain for our system of laws. The second order effects of funneling money to smugglers and coyotes are bad as well.

Every country has a right to decide who can visit or immigrate. That’s the right of any sovereign state.

If the people of America want more immigration then have them petition their representatives to change the laws to all for it.

[JumpCrisscross]

> They’re cheating

"Of course, 'It is illegal and unconstitutional to deport, detain for deportation, or recommend deportation of a U.S. citizen.' See Lyttle v. United States, 867 F.Supp.2d 1256 (M.D. Ga. 2012) (citing Tuan Anh Nguyen v. Immigration & Naturalization Serv., 533 U.S. 53, 67 (2001) (affirming that a citizen has the 'absolute right to enter [the United States] borders'); Shapiro v. Thompson, 394 U.S. 618, 629 (1969) ('This Court long ago recognized that the nature of our Federal Union and our constitutional concepts of personal liberty unite to require that all citizens be free to travel throughout the length and breadth of our land uninhibited by statutes, rules, or regulations which unreasonably burden or restrict this movement.')" [1].

To the extent someone is unequivocally cheating, it's ICE.

[1] https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.lawd.21...

[koolba]

If you read the complete sentence you’d realize I’m referring to cheating against every other potential immigrant to come to the USA.

> To the extent someone is unequivocally cheating, it's ICE.

So what exactly is ICE supposed to do if they are deporting the illegal alien mother and child is a citizen? Forget the possibility of a deported father. Say a single mother with no legal status is being deported.

Does she not get the option to take her child with her?

If she didn’t take the child the same people would be likely be screaming about ICE separating families.

Kids are not a get out of jail free card.

[JumpCrisscross]

> you’d realize I’m referring to cheating against every other potential immigrant to come to the USA

I know. I'm pointing out that the mother's illegal immigration is outweighed by ICE's illegal detention, deportation and wilful abrogation of legal and constitutional rights of a U.S. citizen.

> what exactly is ICE supposed to do if they are deporting the illegal alien mother and child is a citizen?

Follow the law. In this case, that would involve transfering the child to her designated custodian [1].

> If she didn’t take the child the same people would be likely be screaming about ICE separating families

Not an excuse for breaking the law!

[1] https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/69940863/1/v-m-l-v-harp...

[shadowgovt]

In a debate between the concrete reality of US children being kicked out of the country and hypothetical potential non-citizens not being able to become a citizen, I will side with the child every time. I don't think that's a radical position.

Here's an interesting question: are undocumented immigrants actually stopping non-citizens from becoming citizens? These two things are actually quite independent, yes? You're building a very similar argument to "piracy is bad because it takes money out of the hands of the RIAA."

[koolba]

> Here's an interesting question: are undocumented immigrants actually stopping non-citizens from becoming citizens? These two things are actually quite independent, yes? You're building a very similar argument to "piracy is bad because it takes money out of the hands of the RIAA."

So in your analogy the RIAA are the huddled masses yearning to breathe free that respect immigration laws?

[shadowgovt]

In your analogy, are undocumented immigrants not the huddled masses yearning to breathe free?

[shadowgovt]

Rights imply an obligation.

What we're doing right now isn't working, isn't sustainable, and ignores several realities of how we interact with our neighboring nations (and, indeed, is a new problem... The current tight-border regime isn't even half a century old).

At what point do we decide that if the laws are broken that often, perhaps it's because they're bad laws that are too incompatible with reality to be practically enforced successfully? We could pass a law that requires you to hover three inches off the ground; do we blame you if you don't start levitating?

[koolba]

> What we're doing right now isn't working, isn't sustainable, and ignores several realities of how we interact with our neighboring nations (and, indeed, is a new problem... The current tight-border regime isn't even half a century old).

The problem with this argument is it’s downstream from a self fulfilling prophesy derived from the previous administration’s refusal to enforce the law. Illegal border crossings are down 99% over the past year. If that type of seriousness had been applied previously we wouldn’t be in the situation we are today.

We didn’t do the ounce of prevention so now we have to administer the bitter medicine that is the cure.

[shadowgovt]

The medicine is not worth the cure. While illegal border crossings are down, it's because all border crossings are down... People have become legitimately fearful outside this country that visiting this country, even as our guests legally, could result in a long stay in detention with no due process. The damage this administration is doing to America's international reputation Is by no means worth lower border crossing numbers. It's the equivalent of keeping rowdy teenagers off your property by waving a shotgun at them... It works, but now your neighbors know you is the crazy shotgun toting guy at the edge of town and they avoid you.

Pax Americana is built on a web of trust that includes the notion that America is a welcoming nation. I think it's going to take economists some time to calculate the full magnitude of the damage that closing up the borders will do to America's ability to realize all of its interests. Where are we going to get the next generation of innovators and creators of scientific breakthroughs when people stop showing up at our universities because we are capriciously kicking them out? How are the communities who were bothered or scared of undocumented immigrants going to fair when tourists stop showing up?

[darksaints]

They deported a US Citizen. A child. Kept from contact from her US Citizen father.

If that’s the sort of way that you believe we should treat legal immigrants, you have no basis to claim any support for them.

[rdtsc]

> A child. Kept from contact from her US Citizen father.

Is that true?

If this is the correct case link it doesn't seem like the father is a US citizen?

https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.lawd.21...

> father executed a Provisional Custody by Mandate under Louisiana Revised Statutes

It seems odd that he would give provisional custody to "family friend" then?

Then this doesn't add up then

> Respondent Harper later sent an email further evincing her refusal to release V.M.L. to her custodian, see Exh. 2, and stating that she would instead require V.M.L.’s father to turn himself in for detention and deportation,

So they wanted to deport the US citizen father?

It's possible that I am looking at a different court case perhaps.

[nineplay]

I'm surprised you single out Americans who on the whole still a lot more welcoming than a lot more countries in Europe and Asia. The last few months have torn that reputation apart of course, and there is loud group who would happily shut the borders, but there are a lot of citizens who are happy with legal immigration, sympatric to illegal immigration, and still embrace the melting pot.

My conversations with H-1B visa holders is that whatever aggravations they may have in the US, they can still get into the US. Other countries just don't have that pathway

[aprilthird2021]

> The people of America, unfortunately, are prone to drastically evil actions when they are tricked by opportunistic political actors into believing their way of life is somehow under attack.

All people are like this. When the economic prospects for you look bleak, it's very aggravating to see someone you believe is an outsider is succeeding. We see microcosms of this in the bay area where people blame tech workers for driving the cost of living up and making it hard for regular people. In reality, housing policy has done that, but people get mad seeing new outsiders enjoying the life that has become harder and harder for them to afford.

[anon7725]

> When the economic prospects for you look bleak

This is the richest nation on earth with a roughly 4% unemployment rate we’re talking about here.

[throwaway48476]

People are buying groceries on credit.

[anonfordays]

>Half this country has been tricked into seeing hardworking immigrants as a threat to their safety and livelihood — but by all metrics, immigrants are a net positive to society.

We should highlight there is a difference between legal and illegal immigration when it comes to the net impact on society:

"Illegal immigrants are a net fiscal drain, meaning they receive more in government services than they pay in taxes ... Like their less-educated and low-income U.S.-born counterparts, the tax payments of illegal immigrants do not come close to covering the cost they create."[0]

Illegal immigration also drives up housing costs and depresses wages for lower wage earners.[1]

[0] https://www.congress.gov/118/meeting/house/116727/witnesses/...

[1] https://oversight.house.gov/wp-content/uploads/2024/09/Camar...

[rsoto2]

I'm an "illegal."

Physics degree. Magna cum laude. Engineer. Homeowner. If you heard me speak you would never guess I was not American. I have been here 30 out of 32 years an I have no legal pathway to residency or citizenship.

I guess I should have helped poison our cities with black tar heroin via a shitty PHP website running in the tor network like Ulbritch, maybe then I could get a pardon from the orange moron.

[remarkEon]

It's many different things, but scale and time horizon is certainly one of them. The scale of immigration over just the last 30 years is truly unprecedented, and will have political impacts for the next 50. The share of the population that is foreign born is up to 15% (likely much higher, since it's difficult to actually count illegal immigrants), which is the first time since the mid 19th century it's reached that level. Qualitatively, seeing e.g. a childhood neighborhood turn into something that resembles a (very) foreign country is ... jarring. I'd also submit that your brief summary of American history is wrong, and is part of the problem. It very slyly changes the foundation of the nation from something heroic to something that we should be ashamed of, and that mass immigration is the only way to do penance for that sin. It's fine to advocate for people coming here to seek a better life, but it's wrong to describe America as a "nation of immigrants", when the reality is closer to a "nation of settlers" who built up a largely empty country. I also tend to roll my eyes when people invoke "Islamophobia", since the United States is a) not a Muslim country and therefor does not have to defer to Islamic interests, and b) that term is typically invoked in an attempt to bully someone into agreeing with a more extreme position since, well, you don't want to be Islamophobic now do you.

[thephyber]

> which is the first time since the mid 19th century it's reached that level

The percentage of foreign born in the US from The Civil War until WW1 was always between 13%-15% which is comparable to now.[1]

You’re trying so hard to make a point, you’re veering into lie territory.

[1] https://www.migrationpolicy.org/programs/data-hub/charts/imm...

[madcadmium]

> by all metrics, immigrants are a net positive to society.

What about wage suppression?

[mikeyouse]

In study after study, immigrants actually raise the wages of citizen workers by taking the lower paying jobs while citizens can then be more productive. The idea they suppress wages is just another form of the ‘lump of labor’ fallacy.

https://www.jstor.org/stable/41426727

https://www.dagliano.unimi.it/media/12-Ottaviano-Peri-2008.p...

[annexrichmond]

You are really twisting things to make your argument sound plausible in the general case. More supply means less wages. Why focus on low paying jobs? Are you seriously suggesting that if we import every software engineer from India that wants to come here that my salary will increase? If so, that's very interesting why tech CEOs are lobbying so hard for this.

[JackYoustra]

Your "more supply equals lower wages" argument is demolished by top economic research. A recent NBER study calculated that "immigration, thanks to native-immigrant complementarity and college skill content of immigrants, had a positive and significant effect between +1.7 to +2.6% on wages of less educated native workers" between 2000-2019.

The economy isn't zero-sum. As Milton Friedman noted, "most economic fallacies derive from the tendency to assume that there is a fixed pie, that one party can gain only at the expense of another." Immigrants create demand for housing, food, education, entertainment, and specialized services that natives often provide.

Historical evidence consistently disproves the fallacy: When women entered the workforce, it didn't cause massive job losses among men. When segregation was abolished, Black workers didn't cause mass unemployment among whites. The vast majority of Americans descend from immigrants who contributed to economic growth.

Research on H-1B visas shows that firms that get immigrant labor end up "hiring more tech workers and paying them more, because they become more efficient and sometimes scale up." In fact, studies show each H-1B worker creates approximately 1.83 jobs for native-born Americans.

The UK's Migration Advisory Committee, after reviewing studies from 2003-2018, concluded that "immigration had little or no impact on average employment or unemployment of existing workers" and "little impact on average wages."

The overwhelming consensus among economists is that immigration grows the economic pie rather than merely redistributing slices. That's why America's most immigrant-rich cities consistently have the highest wages, not the lowest.

PLEASE, I am begging you. Spend 15 minutes reading actual economic research before posting confidently incorrect Econ 101 oversimplifications. The "immigrants take our jobs" fallacy has been debunked by virtually every reputable economic study for the past 30 years. This isn't some fringe academic view. It's the overwhelming consensus of actual economists who study this for a living. Your intuition about "more workers = lower wages" seems logical but falls apart when tested against actual economic data. The real world is more complex than a supply-and-demand graph from an introductory textbook.

[remarkEon]

Nowhere in the economic research does it explain what you are so confidently stating, that wages are, somehow, the only thing in all of economics where positive supply shocks do not matter. The arguments that tend to be made are that, on a long enough time horizon, mean wages increase because overall economic output goes up, and mean economic output goes up because there is a higher supply of available labor.

[JackYoustra]

You're fundamentally misunderstanding both the economic research and my argument. No one is claiming wages are "the only thing in economics where positive supply shocks don't matter."

The research shows that labor markets aren't simple supply-demand curves because of complementary productivity effects and gains from specialization, selection effects, and, of course, demand generated by the immigrants. If you have general labor size increase, in general equilibrium with a responsive central bank interest rates will lower to keep employment tight.

This isn't about "long enough time horizons" - studies find positive or neutral effects in the short and medium term too. The fundamental issue is that your model assumes a fixed economic pie that immigrants simply divide into smaller slices, when in reality immigrants help grow the pie overall.

[annexrichmond]

Strawman. You're talking about wages and jobs in aggregate which wasn't my argument at all. Nothing you said addresses how my salary is affected in the industry the person is joining.

Sure, in total, other jobs may be created and growth is increased -- it's essentially a tautology.

[JackYoustra]

I don't know why you think you're entitled to any particular job due to government policy, that seems like a really poor and inefficient way to run an economy.

Feels like "DOGE for thee, but not for me"

[ExoticPearTree]

> I cannot for the life of me understand why Americans have such a problem with other people coming here to seek a better life.

They do not come legally. That's the problem. Plain and simple.