[whynotmaybe]

I guess that after "In god we trust" on the bank notes, it's now "god helps those who help themselves" for the rest.

> The phrase is often mistaken as a scriptural quote, though it is not stated in the Bible. Some Christians consider the expression contrary to the biblical message of God's grace and help for the helpless, and its denunciation of greed and selfishness.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_helps_those_who_help_the...

[ryao]

I would think that phrase is related to the phrase, “he who does not work, does not eat”, which is in the Bible:

https://biblehub.com/2_thessalonians/3-10.htm

The phrase “he who does not work, does not eat” was never intended by its author to be applied to those who were physically incapable of working. You might say otherwise, but Saint Paul had been a very traditional adherent of the Jewish faith, which had required farmers to leave portions of their harvest for the poor and destitute. The idea that he thought those who were physically incapable of working should not eat is absurd. It is unlikely he had a change of heart on this matter after his conversion to Christianity given that he had viewed Christianity as the continuation of Judaism.

Anyway, I always thought the phrase “God helps those who help themselves” meant you had to do a bare minimum within your capability to take care of yourself if you want help. I think it is a corruption to claim the phrase “God helps those who help themselves” in any way implies that God does not help those who are incapable of helping themselves.

[JKCalhoun]

I didn't know anyone was splitting hairs as to whether the phrase was to be applied to the helpless.

Regardless, it always seems to be used as a cudgel against those whom the invoker believes is lazy or undeserving of God's help.

(As an atheist though the phrase always seemed like a justification for why prayers were not being answered.)

[ryao]

My mother has invoked it at various points in my life to try to motivate me to do the bare minimum to help myself when she did not think I was doing even that much (and was capable of doing it). I suppose that could have seemed like a cudgel to observers, but it was not.

As for prayers being unanswered, there are two tragedies in this world. One is not getting what you want. The other is getting it. Interestingly, the Mouse Utopia Experiment showed that giving everyone everything that they could ever want is ultimately bad for them. That is perhaps a major reason why various prayers are unanswered.

[Retric]

Mouse Utopia experiment doesn’t give mice space it’s just not the kind of restriction that’s initially obvious.

The modern take is when you put animals into environments well outside what they evolved for you get seemingly bizarre behavior.

[minton]

I don’t think we need a study to understand that someone who always gets everything they want is usually a spoiled brat.

[Retric]

That’s exactly the kind of assumption you should want someone to rigorously examine.

But more importantly it was not happening in those experiments.

[catlikesshrimp]

Since there is plenty of room for uncharitable interpretations, it would be controversial. More controversy about religion.

The status quo "in god we trust" is universally hopeful.

"God help us" can sound helpless (cheek in tongue)

[ryao]

This is the first that I have heard of them. The apparent inspiration for the phrase had never meant to be interpreted to justify a lack of charity. Only those with poor understandings of Christianity’s history and teachings would think otherwise. I would think the “uncharitable interpretations” of the phrase “God helps those who help themselves” are by those with poor understandings as well.

[cwillu]

The only difference is the vibe; the actual words have pretty similar meanings.

[EGreg]

Paul's teaching is plainly at odds with Jesus' teachings, and people do a lot of acrobatics to try to reconcile the two.

Jesus: 25 Therefore I say unto you, Be not anxious for your life, what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink; nor yet for your body, what ye shall put on. Is not the life more than the food, and the body than the raiment? 26 Behold the birds of the heaven, that they sow not, neither do they reap, nor gather into barns; and your heavenly Father feedeth them. Are not ye of much more value than they? 27 And which of you by being anxious can add one cubit unto [a]the measure of his life? 28 And why are ye anxious concerning raiment? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow; they toil not, neither do they spin: 29 yet I say unto you, that even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these. 30 But if God doth so clothe the grass of the field, which to-day is, and to-morrow is cast into the oven, shall he not much more clothe you, O ye of little faith? 31 Be not therefore anxious, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed? 32 For after all these things do the Gentiles seek; for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things. 33 But seek ye first his kingdom, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you. 34 Be not therefore anxious for the morrow: for the morrow will be anxious for itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof.

Paul: 10 For even when we were with you, this we commanded you: that if any would not work, neither should he eat.

11 For we hear that there are some among you who walk disorderly, working not at all, but are busybodies.

12 Now those who are such, we command and exhort by our Lord Jesus Christ that they work with quietness and eat their own bread.

Jesus: 17 As Jesus was starting out on his way to Jerusalem, a man came running up to him, knelt down, and asked, “Good Teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?”

18 “Why do you call me good?” Jesus asked. “Only God is truly good. 19 But to answer your question, you know the commandments: ‘You must not murder. You must not commit adultery. You must not steal. You must not testify falsely. You must not cheat anyone. Honor your father and mother.’[a]”

20 “Teacher,” the man replied, “I’ve obeyed all these commandments since I was young.”

21 Looking at the man, Jesus felt genuine love for him. “There is still one thing you haven’t done,” he told him. “Go and sell all your possessions and give the money to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”

22 At this the man’s face fell, and he went away sad, for he had many possessions.

23 Jesus looked around and said to his disciples, “How hard it is for the rich to enter the Kingdom of God!” 24 This amazed them. But Jesus said again, “Dear children, it is very hard[b] to enter the Kingdom of God. 25 In fact, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter the Kingdom of God!”

Jesus: 17 “Think not that I am come to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.

18 For verily I say unto you, till heaven and earth pass away, not one jot or one tittle shall in any wise pass from the law till all be fulfilled.

19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the Kingdom of Heaven; but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the Kingdom of Heaven.

Paul: By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear.

Paul: Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree." [6] 14 He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit. 15

Jesus: * And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil.

23 But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us.

24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

25 Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me.

26 But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs.

27 And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table.

28 Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.*

Peter was supposed to be the "disciple to the Gentiles". But Paul became one.

But he claimed he saw Jesus on the road to Damascus, in the wilderness, and then in the inner rooms of the jail cell.

Jesus: “So if anyone tells you, ‘There he is, out in the wilderness,’ do not go out; or, ‘Here he is, in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it.

Paul himself admits he didn't actually study with any of Jesus' own students, but went to Arabia for 3 years and taught from his own visions. Like Mohammad did centuries later. And then later

Paul: 15But when God, who set me apart from my mother’s womb and called me by his grace, was pleased 16to reveal his Son in me so that I might preach him among the Gentiles, my immediate response was not to consult any human being. 17I did not go up to Jerusalem to see those who were apostles before I was, but I went into Arabia. Later I returned to Damascus.

18Then after three years, I went up to Jerusalem to get acquainted with Cephas b and stayed with him fifteen days. 19I saw none of the other apostles—only James, the Lord’s brother. 20I assure you before God that what I am writing you is no lie.

21Then I went to Syria and Cilicia. 22I was personally unknown to the churches of Judea that are in Christ. 23They only heard the report: “The man who formerly persecuted us is now preaching the faith he once tried to destroy.” 24And they praised God because of me.

In Acts 15: Paul finally visits Jerusalem he argues with Peter.

Paul: When Cephas came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he stood condemned... When I saw that they were not acting in line with the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas in front of them all, “You are a Jew, yet you live like a Gentile and not like a Jew. How is it, then, that you force Gentiles to follow Jewish customs?

But his historian Luke says the opposite about this incident -- that he was rebuked* and told to publicly show everyone he isn't teaching Jews not to follow the law, by paying for some nazarene's purification rites to shave their heads. And so he did! Publicly!

Acts 21: 20 When they heard this, they praised God. Then they said to Paul: “You see, brother, how many thousands of Jews have believed, and all of them are zealous for the law. 21 They have been informed that you teach all the Jews who live among the Gentiles to turn away from Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children or live according to our customs. 22 What shall we do? They will certainly hear that you have come, 23 so do what we tell you. There are four men with us who have made a vow. 24 Take these men, join in their purification rites and pay their expenses, so that they can have their heads shaved. Then everyone will know there is no truth in these reports about you, but that you yourself are living in obedience to the law. 25 As for the Gentile believers, we have written to them our decision that they should abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality.”

And this refers to the OFFICIAL LETTER OF THE CHURCH THAT JESUS HIMSELF SET UP, led by his brother James and by Peter ("the Rock") who invoked the authority of the Holy Spirit to say to all gentile believers to essentially follow Noahide laws:

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts%2015&versi...

Paul agreed to go to his churches and send this message. But he said instead:

Galatians 2: As for those who were held in high esteem—whatever they were makes no difference to me; God does not show favoritism—they added nothing to my message. 7On the contrary, they recognized that I had been entrusted with the task of preaching the gospel to the uncircumcised, a just as Peter had been to the circumcised. b 8For God, who was at work in Peter as an apostle to the circumcised, was also at work in me as an apostle to the Gentiles. 9James, Cephas c and John, those esteemed as pillars, gave me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship when they recognized the grace given to me. They agreed that we should go to the Gentiles, and they to the circumcised. 10All they asked was that we should continue to remember the poor, the very thing I had been eager to do all along.

Seems to contradict what he was told to send to them.

[EGreg]

I could go on. The point is this ... Paul and Luke wrote the majority of the New Testament. But their authority is circular. Jesus never taught Paul. Jesus' teachings were for Jews and he told them to follow the law. Paul said seemingly the opposite. Paul got his religion from his own visions. Paul argued with the very people Jesus did set up to run the Church. And from his letters, he doesn't seem to have related what they explicitly said, invoking all their authority. Luke somehow records that.

Today, after the Council of Niceae by Constantine 3 centuries after the events, nearly all Christian denominations follow Pauline doctrine. But where is his authority from? How is he any different from, say, Mohammad?

From all the Christian apologists I have talked to, they point to one verse and one verse only: Second Peter

15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation, even as our beloved brother Paul also, according to the wisdom given unto him, hath written unto you,

16 as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things. Therein are some things hard to understand, which those who are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other Scriptures, unto their own destruction.

But most scholars consider Second Peter not to have been even written by Peter

https://bible.org/article/authorship-second-peter

Harris says, “virtually none believe that 2 Peter was written by Jesus’ chief disciple.”2 And Brevard S. Childs, an excellent rhetorical critic, shows his assumption when he says, “even among scholars who recognize the non-Petrine authorship there remains the sharpest possible disagreement on a theological assessment.”3

So what are we left with? One dubious link to Paul, from Jesus and his followers, in the entire Bible. And yet most people follow Paul.

Thomas Jefferson: I separate therefore the gold from the dross; restore to him the former, & leave the latter to the stupidity of some, and roguery of others of his disciples. of this band of dupes and impostors, Paul was the great Coryphaeus, and first corrupter of the doctrines of Jesus.

Anyway... that's my conclusion after studying the matter in as much depth as I could find, and talking to Christian apologists.

[whynotmaybe]

> Today, after the Council of Niceae by Constantine 3 centuries after the events, nearly all Christian denominations follow Pauline doctrine. But where is his authority from? How is he any different from, say, Mohammad?

All religions based on books have discrepancies within themselves that allow people to pick whatever they want and adapt it to their personal wants and actions.

Some flavours want people to interpret the scriptures themselves, while other flavours only allow some specific scholars to interpret it and you must follow blindly.

By design, religions have a de facto tendency to control people's behaviours and beliefs and fill the gaps wherever they are.

Cultural contexts shifts can't be addressed quickly as their traditions are rooted in centuries of small interpretations that can't be undone.

I guess that's why so many people have a tendency to leave religion, just by seeing how much of the past can they carry before it starts weighing them down more than it lifts them up.

For the bible, the simple definition of righteous needs interpretation :

James 2:24 : You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.

Ephesians 2:8-9 : For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast.

Everything surrounding Paul could be described as the first interpretation and it's often easier to follow an existing idea than make your own.

[derefr]

I feel like, despite the apochrycality of it, there’s a theologically-valid interpretation of the quote: namely, the same principle behind putting on your own breath mask first on a plane in an emergency.

The Bible-compatible spin on this might be something like: if you don’t “help yourself” in the absolute strictest sense — feeding yourself, say — but only set out to help others, then you will fail to help others, as your body will fail you before you’ve done a single useful thing. It is not sainthood, not martyrdom, to refuse to do the small work required to accept the “gifts of God” (like a breath mask that keeps you alive long enough to do the work required to save your own children.)

[ctoth]

> I sent three boats!