[TuringNYC]

>> solar panels are cheap

I want solar panels, but i'm also a skeptic on the cost, and not enough time has passed to prove how things will go. While I agree the metered cost may now favor solar -- what is the TCO for the average resident? Some things on my mind:

1. Everything seems inexpensive at first, before you have to pay for servicing. Just like with cars, HVAC systems, plumbing systems, or any complex system where you are at the mercy of repair companies that are highly local. With plumbers in our area, you cannot even effectively get multiple quotes because there is a "visit fee" of $125, which gets credited to repairs if you choose the provider.

2. Roofs in general are expensive to maintain and repair. Here on the costs, i've never seen even a minor repair be under 1k. Major roof replacements cost 5 to 15k for average homes. This might be a greater-metro-NY issue though. Part of it is the liability insurance of workers being on the roof, so I'm not saying the cost is unjustified -- just that it is really expensive.

3. What happens when these solar panels need to be serviced? Many of these solar shops are fly by night, looking to cash in on govt incentives. Will they be around to service malfunctioning or panels? What will repair costs be? Who guarantees the warranty? As an example, here in NJ even minor tweaks on a leaking showerhead will cost $500 to $1000. I can only imagine what a broken solar panel will cost.

4. I realize this is a very selfish opinion -- but just from a systems boundary perspective, traditional energy complexity is all upstream and I consume the end-product. Solar energy complexity is all local and I take the risk.

[pjc50]

As someone else points out, this is just a rooftop solar question and utility has better economics unless land is really expensive everywhere or your grid connection permitting regime is broken.

My rooftop solar installation is about 10 years old, has long since broken even, and has required .. exactly one incidence of maintenance, to fit pigeon-proofing. Which could have been done at the initial install time, I just wasn't aware of how necessary it could be.

It has huge advantages against HVAC (and, by extension, all the plumbing-based systems like nuclear) in that it doesn't have any plumbing. The panel is a big photodiode. There is basically nothing to go wrong unless you have serious storm damage - and my panels have survived winds that took down nearby trees and fences.

> What happens when these solar panels need to be serviced?

To a first approximation, they don't. Maybe at the 20-25 "EOL" mark.

(even cheaper option would be balcony solar, but that requires legalization)

[NooneAtAll3]

how does pigeon-proofing work?

[pjc50]

Since I have curved tiles, that creates a space underneath that's ideal for nesting in. Since they're a nuisance, the pigeon proofing consists of fitting some combination of wire mesh and plastic around the edges to stop them from getting underneath.

[MisterTea]

1. HVAC manufactures have moved to building proprietary computer controlled HVAC systems which must be serviced by a certified technician. This allows them to build a system of regional service companies who maintain complete monopoly over an entire region. Even if you wanted to open a shop to compete with the incumbent, you can't because the manufacturer wont allow you if another shop in your region exists. The result is gate-kept artificial scarcity of technicians and parts allowing for price gouging. The solution is right to repair and boycotting these clowns.

2. Roof work has always been a huge cost as it's very labor intensive (I learned some flat roof maintenance from a roofer friend.) The issue is we have not developed a roof system that works in conjunction with solar panels. Until that happens roofs and solar will be orthogonal problems no one wants.

3. My work got semi-screwed by this. They used concrete blocks, around 60,000 pounds worth, to hold down metal frames the panels were bolted to. Total bonkers fly-by night operation company disappeared after 2 years and we had to maintain it ourselves. Roof was destroyed after 7 years as it was leaking all over and several cracks formed in the blocks around beams. It was deemed unsafe and the entire 75kW system removed. Building owner spent $200k on a new roof and building repairs then banned solar from being installed again.

4. So is your fancy HVAC system. I believe that electrical generation should become part of a homes infrastructure just like HVAC. It enables authority and autonomy over energy which is something I have wanted. Though I also believe if someone wishes to surrender that autonomy then they should be allowed to do so.

[WillAdams]

For your point 2. isn't there a company making solar cell arrays in the form of a metal roof panel?

A quick search shows: Forward Solar Roofing, a San Francisco, USA company (but they seem to have vanished?)

Another company with a similar approach (which is not Tesla) is: https://www.suntegrasolar.com/

[MisterTea]

My concern with these systems is what happens if the company goes out of business and you need to replace a proprietary shaped panel?

[WillAdams]

The Forward Solar Roofing company had panels which were interchangeable w/ existing metal panels, so could have been replaced (albeit at a loss of capacity).

Agree that's a concern for the other products in this space.

[r00fus]

> The issue is we have not developed a roof system that works in conjunction with solar panels.

Millions of data points suggest your POV is unfounded.

[MisterTea]

Please post them.

[r00fus]

Every single solar installation with no reported issues.

[MisterTea]

The issue here are current racking systems make service of the roof difficult or impossible without tedious and costly disassembly of traditional solar panel installation. Someone has to go around and unbolt everything. We need a system where you can rapidly attach and remove them without tools. Otherwise roof maintenance becomes roofer + PV maintenance.

[eitally]

We purchased our bay area house in early 2016, two months after it had a new roof and solar installation added. Total cost to the previous owner was about $30k, for 30yr architectural shingles and a 5.5kwhr array.

It's required 0 maintenance or repair since we've lived here.

I'm under the impression that CA either required - or it was just highly suggested - to only install solar arrays on roofs that were in good shape and less than 5yo. That said, we're about to do a remodel and the array will be removed and stored during the project and reinstalled afterward, with a few more panels and a couple of batteries. I'm not concerned about roof repairability relative to my electricity cost savings in California under pg&e.

[r00fus]

While you have a valid point, how often do people need to reroof their house? Or even repair something that is impacted from a solar install?

My anecdotal understanding is that there are no such complaints from owners.

[apercu]

>2. Roofs in general are expensive to maintain and repair. Here on the costs, i've never seen even a minor repair be under 1k. Major roof replacements cost 5 to 15k for average homes. This might be a greater-metro-NY issue though. Part of it is the liability insurance of workers being on the roof, so I'm not saying the cost is unjustified -- just that it is really expensive.

Where exactly is this? I have a modest, single story house (1600 sq ft) and most of my estimates are ~$20k. (SW Wisconsin).

[ChoGGi]

If that's just stripping the old shingles off and placing new ones, you should be looking at around $6-10k.

Is there a lot of rebuilding or something going on around you?

My roof (1200 sq roof deck not house) would've been about 18, but that's because it had cedar shingles under the asphalt. I did it myself for 3 in materials and about 3 weeks of labour. These are all CAD prices.

[apercu]

There are two layers of shingles underneath and that added $600. I have a separate outbuilding (2 car garage but it's a simple hip roof on the house). The lowest estimate we got was $14,500, but it was an outlier.

[01100011]

So my experience with a leased solar system installed in SoCal in 2011 and owned until 2018(SunRun). The system ended up costing me a fair amount of money although it let me run my AC all day without thinking about it. Sure I could have turned off the AC but the amount I'd have made from selling electricity wouldn't have been much. I hear the situation is even worse now because of the new plans(and now people in the old plans will be forcibly removed). The system also slightly complicated the sale of the home.

I'll say that one goal of the current administration, assuming they're competent enough to accomplish anything, is to dramatically increase US electricity production and I believe them. So with electric costs predicted to drop I suspect it is a bad time to invest in a solar system. China tariffs probably make this even worse as panels should rise in cost.

I would also defer a solar install until I got a new roof since replacing your roof means paying to remove and replace the solar system.

I'll admit that I am biased, generally, against residential rooftop solar for non-off-grid installs since my personal belief is those panels serve society better when they're filling commercial rooftops where economies of scale can make maintenance overhead per watt lower but I'm sure someone will contradict that belief with statistics. Just throwing it out there.

[kadushka]

Major roof replacements cost 5 to 15k for average homes

I just got some quotes to replace a tile roof on my very average 2400 sqft house in FL: 50-60k. Asked neighbors - seems reasonable to them.

[apercu]

I assume Florida is an outlier due to storms, in most of the country you'd probably pay half that unless your roof is complicated.

[kadushka]

I also got a quote from Tesla to get solar shingles roof - $110k.

[ChoGGi]

That's the asphalt shingle price, tile is pricey.

[HDThoreaun]

cant use shingles in FL

[r00fus]

You opinion is not selfish (I'm selfishly taking advantage of low solar cell costs and decent ROI). You are however, quite uninformed about the details. Go ask on /r/solar or some other forums or just ask friends who've installed - most are just silently soaking up ROI.

Three things to keep in mind: * I would definitely install after replacing your roof unless it's like just < 5yr old. * Most solar loans, PPA or leases have significantly bad financial terms so I recommend people to avoid them. * Make sure your utility has some kind of net-metering or you will have to install batteries to make it cost effective.

[xbmcuser]

Equipment cost is actually not that much now it mostly labor and marketing. That is the main reason solar makes countries with cheap labor have huge advantage with solar. A similar system will cost $60k in the US to $15-20k in India and China

[jandrese]

Or Australia. For some reason Aussie installers are able to install systems for incredibly affordable prices. I'm always jealous when I see a quote from down under that is like a third of what I paid per watt in the US.

[dalyons]

baffles me! aussie labor is really expensive, so it makes even less sense. What is the US doing wrong?

[ZeroGravitas]

I think Australia is doing well compared with the average country (and also US is doing things wrong).

Discussion of what Australia is doing well here from a solar expert:

https://bsky.app/profile/solarchase.bsky.social/post/3lmz5rb...

"hypercompetitive and relatively low-regulation installation industry, roofs well suited to work without scaffolding, fairly standardized systems of average size ~8.1kW so not small"

[lupusreal]

> here in NJ even minor tweaks on a leaking showerhead will cost $500 to $1000

Surely that's the "rich idiot" fee. Plumbers charge more when the work is trivial and the customer is wealthy.

[jeffbee]

Nobody even mentioned rooftop solar.