[pron]

My "manic praise" extends to the novelty of the feature as Zig's design is revolutionary. It is exciting because it's very rare to see completely novel designs in programming languages, especially in a language that is both easy to learn and intended for low-level programming.

I wait 10-15 years before judging if a feature is "good"; determining that a feature is bad is usually quicker.

> With comptime types, according to what I’ve read, you’ll have to bring your T to the comptime and find out right then and there if it will work. Without enough foresight it might not.

But the point is that all that is done at compile time, which is also the time when all more specialised features are checked.

> That’s not something I want. I just want generics or parametric polymorphism or whatever it is to work once it compiles.

Again, everything is checked at compile-time. Once it compiles it will work just like generics.

> I mean just let me use the language declaratively.

That's fine and expected. I believe that most language preferences are aesthetic, and there have been few objective reasons to prefer some designs over others, and usually it's a matter of personal preference or "extra-linguistic" concerns, such as availability of developers and libraries, maturity, etc..

> Now I’m not so sure?

Personally, I wouldn't dream of using Zig or Rust for important software because they're so unproven. But I do find novel designs fascinating. Some even match my own aesthetic preferences.

[keybored]

> But the point is that all that is done at compile time, which is also the time when all more specialised features are checked.

> ...

> Again, everything is checked at compile-time. Once it compiles it will work just like generics.

No. My compile-time when using a library with a comptime type in Zig is not guaranteed to work because my user experience could depend on if the library writer tested with the types (or compile-time input) that I am using.[1] That’s not a problem in Java or Haskell: if the library works for Mary it will work for John no matter what the type-inputs are.

> That's fine and expected. I believe that most language preferences are aesthetic, and there have been few objective reasons to prefer some designs over others, and usually it's a matter of personal preference or "extra-linguistic" concerns, such as availability of developers and libraries, maturity, etc..

Please don’t retreat to aesthetics. What I brought up is a concrete and objective user experience tradeoff.

[1] based on https://strongly-typed-thoughts.net/blog/zig-2025#comptime-i...

[pron]

> No. My compile-time when using a library with a comptime type in Zig is not guaranteed to work because my user experience could depend on if the library writer tested with the types (or compile-time input) that I am using.[1] That’s not a problem in Java or Haskell: if the library works for Mary it will work for John no matter what the type-inputs are.

What you're saying isn't very meaningful. Even generics may impose restrictions on their type parameters (e.g. typeclasses in Zig or type bounds in Java) and don't necessarily work for all types. In both cases you know at compile-time whether your types fit the bounds or not.

It is true that the restrictions in Haskell/Java are more declarative, but the distinction is more a matter of personal aesthetic preference, which is exactly what's expressed in that blog post (although comptime is about as different from C++ templates as it is from Haskell/Java generics). Like anything, and especially truly novel approaches, it's not for everyone's tastes, but neither are Java, Haskell, or Rust, for that matter. That doesn't make Zig's approach any less novel or interesting, even if you don't like it. I find Rust's design unpalatable, but that doesn't mean it's not interesting or impressive, and Zig's approach -- again, like it or not -- is even more novel.

[keybored]

> What you're saying isn't very meaningful. Even generics may impose restrictions on their type parameters (e.g. typeclasses in Zig or type bounds in Java) and don't necessarily work for all types. In both cases you know at compile-time whether your types fit the bounds or not.

Java type-bounds is what I mean with declarative. The library author wrote them, I know them, I have to follow them. It’s all spelled out. According to the link that’s not the case with the Zig comptime machinery. It’s effectively duck-typed from the point of view of the client (declaration).

I also had another source in mind which explicitly described how Zig comptime is “duck typed” but I can’t seem to find it. Really annoying.

> It is true that the restrictions in Haskell/Java are more declarative, but the distinction is more a matter of personal aesthetic preference, which is exactly what's expressed in that blog post (although comptime is about as different from C++ templates as it is from Haskell/Java generics).

It’s about as aesthetic as having spelled out reasons (usability) for preferring static typing over dynamic typing or vice versa. It’s really not. At all.

> , but that doesn't mean it's not interesting or impressive, and Zig's approach -- again, like it or not -- is even more novel.

I prefer meaningful leaps forward in programming language usability over supposed most-streamlined and clever approaches (comptime all the way down). I guess I’m just a pragmatist in that very narrow area.

[pron]

> According to the link that’s not the case with the Zig comptime machinery. It’s effectively duck-typed from the point of view of the client (declaration).

It is "duck-typed", but it is checked at compile time. Unlike ducktyping in JS, you know whether or not your type is a valid argument just as you would for Java type bounds -- the compiler lets you know. Everything is also all spelled out, just in a different way.

> It’s about as aesthetic as having spelled out reasons (usability) for preferring static typing over dynamic typing or vice versa. It’s really not. At all.

But everything is checked statically, so all the arguments of failing fast apply here, too.

> I prefer meaningful leaps forward in programming language usability over supposed most-streamlined and clever approaches (comptime all the way down). I guess I’m just a pragmatist in that very narrow area.

We haven't had "meaningful leaps forward in programming language usability" in a very long time (and there are fundamental reasons for that, and indeed the situation was predicted decades ago). But if we were to have a meaningful leap forward, first we'd need some leap forward and then we could try learning how meaningful it is (which usually takes a very long time). I don't know that Zig's comptime is a meaningful leap forward or not, but as one of the most novel innovations in programming languages in a very long time, at least it's something that's worth a look.

[keybored]

> It is "duck-typed", but it is checked at compile time. Unlike ducktyping in JS, you know whether or not your type is a valid argument just as you would for Java type bounds -- the compiler lets you know. Everything is also all spelled out, just in a different way.

At this point I will have to defer to Zig users.

But the wider point stands whether I am correct about Zig usability or not (mostly leaning on the aforelinked URLs). Plenty of things can be compile-time and yet have widely different usability. Something that relies on unconstrained build-time code generation can be much harder to use than macros, which in turn can be harder to use than something like “constant expressions”, and so on.