[noirbot]

And the usual retort you get if you point that out is "but this new fancy coffee tastes worse", which always strikes me as amusing coming from folks who minutes before were claiming it all tasted the same and mocking the idea of tasting notes being real.

Having a preference for a traditional status quo blend is still a preference!

[searealist]

There are two axes here:

- Beans

- Roast level

The variation from roasting is far greater than the variation from the beans, and all third-wave beans are lightly roasted. This results in a brew that is dominated by acids.

[noirbot]

I was with you up until "all third-wave beans are lightly roasted". I suppose it's literally true relative to old espresso roasts, but there's still plenty of third-wave roasts that are decently dark. Maybe not Folgers/Lavazza dark, but you can definitely find more oily/heavy roasts that aren't overly acidic.

There's also a third axis in brew technique - most old-school espresso is only vaguely the same brew method as what you'd get at a third-wave shop where the newer machines have fairly precise temperature, flow, and pressure controls, as well as more consistent grinds with less fines.

[searealist]

Here the first sentence of Third-wave coffee's wikipedia page:

> Third-wave coffee is a term primarily in the United States coffee industry emphasizing higher quality, single-origin farms and light roast to bring out distinctive flavors.

I also strongly suspect your definition of "decently dark" is still below a medium roast. If not, I would be interested if you could cite a "decently dark" roast you have tried from a third-wave coffee shop.

[noirbot]

Sure, I'm not denying what's in that quote - that the emphasis is usually on lighter roasts. Somewhat because there's already a number of older roasters who do nothing but dark roasts.

Many of the cups I've had at Dark Matter in Chicago are decidedly on the darker side, and they have Starry Eyes which is specifically sold as their dark roast. I don't think they post exact roast curves, so I'm not sure there's an objective way to denote what qualifies as a "real" dark roast, but I'm guessing most people who like a more classic dark roast would at least find it acceptably close. Roasters in Atlanta like Chrome Yellow, Dancing Goat, or Portrait also tend to be on the darker side, though I'm not sure if they have mainstay coffees.

It's not as if I've never had a cup of Lavazza or Folgers or Cafe du Monde to compare to. I grew up on basic coffeemaker grocery store French Roast all day every day.

[searealist]

This is actually a perfect example. I agree that you can find dark roasts at some third-wave shops, but they are _not_ third-wave coffee.

> Our premier dark roast is a nod to the old style of roasting which is still favored throughout the world

In this case, they even go out of their way to disqualify it as a third-wave roast.

[dghlsakjg]

I used to work for these guys. Here’s their listings of dark beans available from small third wave roasters.

They are definitely a smaller category, but it is patently false to say that third wave coffee houses don’t do dark roasts. https://beanbox.com/coffee?tags=roast-profile:dark&

[searealist]

Just to clarify, many third wave shops do serve medium and dark roasts. My point is that third wave coffee shops often call a roast dark when they are actually medium or light. Additionally, I think only light roasts really qualify as third wave.

Most of the coffees you listed look like actual dark roasts.

"Full City Roast" with "lemon zest" in the flavor notes raises some red flags for me. Indeed, from the reviews: "Yum! I don't like dark roasts, and this is not a dark roast which is why I liked it. Lots of chocolate. Very smooth, not bitterness, a hint of fruit as it cools. I really enjoyed drinking this."

"Imunika Black" might also be an exception: the "blackberry" tasting note makes me think it isn't very dark.

I see more with citrus or other fruity descriptions, and I doubt those are dark roasts either.

[pyfon]

Also percolation method (ristreto vs. espresso) and roast date.

Some people say grinder too (I haven't really got into the conical vs. flat)

This is assuming the basics are right i.e. machine temperature and pressure, dialing in, good grinder.

Then if you add milk the provenance and we'll keptness of that is a factor.