[karel-3d]

I am not convinced about the random order stuff. If most people will stream from the start then the start will be more seeded? So it's all good.

And the order is requested by the client, and there are clients that go in the sequential order, like Deluge

[mihaic]

The benefit of a random order is that it forces you to actually keep all the packets, which makes upload more likely. Streaming lets you get away with not storing the whole file, which makes bad actors more likely.

And, sure, some BT clients can stream the data, but what the default is makes a huge difference.

[hinkley]

People will shut off the moment they get the full file. The randomness means that the last packet is as likely to exist as the first.

Would you want to watch the beginning of something that didn’t have an ending? How frustrating would that be?

[scott_w]

> People will shut off the moment they get the full file.

Perhaps but the time spent downloading it is also time spent uploading some of the file, so there's still some benefit. By having it in random order, you more evenly distribute the people with access to different parts of the file.

With streaming, if everyone downloads the same blocks at the same time, "bad actors" can dump all data they already watched to save disk space, harming potential peers that are watching slightly behind.

[hinkley]

Proof of work has problems with this because you (Mallory) can be paid to be the tertiary durable store for a file and secretly fetch the file from Alice or Bob when asked to prove you have the files. And even if you do something like use a different cypher for each copy the fact that the data is often meant to be public means one could work out the cypher given Alice and Bob and then dump your copy once you have done so.

Unless you use public key cryptography, which is so expensive that nobody actually uses it for arbitrarily large inputs.

[bawolff]

If we are talking about a live stream (and not a stream of a static file), having the start be more seeded is useless.

[Calwestjobs]

mpeg stream / TS filetype / DVB-T/C/S broadcast IS static file, all 3 is same format, this format deals with every point you made... download specs and educate yourself.

same with streaming audio, chunk IS static file, so every phone call you made last 30 years is static file.

[bawolff]

The issue is not how the bits are divided into packets (or "files") but how those packets are distributed/used.

Obviously at the end of the day its a string of bytes, like everything is, the difference i'm trying to get at is differences in how the data is used and requested.

Its more a social difference not a technical one.

[Calwestjobs]

and there is no reason for bittorrent to not being able to send/download 3000 TS chunks / static files for 3 hour movie in sequential order.

and no reason for your MPV/VLC/PotPlayer to not render that in sequential order.

even when you have only first 2 pieces.

[imtringued]

The word "file" is doing a lot of heavy lifting here.

[Calwestjobs]

what is difference what kind of data chunk it is? 0 difference. or for university educated - he introduced file as a helpful abstraction, so i work with that abstraction, if you say it is not good abstraction then tell him. calling ts file a file is absolutely correct in any sense of word. just to be thorough. in philosophical debate we are having in computer science. ( yes toxic sarcasm )

that one post is more to the topic of OP is asking for, than 90% of comments here.

again NEWS, movies, comedy, trumps tarrifs, are streamed digitally to bilions of people over dvb-t/c/s every day. if how are bits ordered/chunked is important for you that much, that this already working system is not good for you in that sense ? makes no sense.

or explain little more, one sentence explaining whole world is k12 like. or 42 for book readers.

[bawolff]

I'm using "static file" to mean something pre-recorded that even if users will view in order, they will likely start at different times, so different users will be viewing different parts of it.

In contrast to a live stream where everyone is viewing the same part at the same time, and once that part passes nobody is likely to view the old part ever again.

This makes a big difference in terms of network design.

[Calwestjobs]

yes so makes no difference if it is file "without end" (pipe essentially) or bunch of TS files.

[delusional]

If everybody starts at the start then it will be very poorly seeded when everybody wants it, before the being well seeded right when nobody needs it.

[Calwestjobs]

"well seeded" means what exactly?

if i can send 2 copies of piece to 2 people immediately as i got it, then if my download takes 20 ms and sending it another 20 ms is it "well seeded" for those 3 people after 50 ms? or after how much time it is "well seeded" ?

[delusional]

A precise answer to that question entails more math than I'm willing to do right here in the middle of my Easter holiday. You should understand my argument more as a sketch of proof.

That being said I have a small correction. If you want to stream to two peers (that is you have a network with 3 fully connected nodes, one being the originator of the stream) and the link latency for all links is 20ms, then your lowest latency path to each node is exactly 20ms, as the originating node could simply send the content to each client.

The unfortunate realization is that 20ms is then also the optimal stream delay, assuming you care about the shortest possible latency for your live streaming service. The clients will therefore end up with the content exactly when they were supposed to show it, and therefore they would have no time to forward it to anyone else, lest that downstream would get the content AFTER they were supposed to show it.

[jsnider3]

Downloading and reuploading part of a file in 50 ms is optimistic and that is still only three people when serious live-streaming platforms have to deal with thousands of viewers routinely and millions every so often.

[zveyaeyv3sfye]

That's only true if everyone starts at the very same moment in time. Of course that is not reality, and it works out well in practice.

[Calwestjobs]

yes you are correct, BitTorrent - sequential download also works exactly like that.

people seem to have need for 0ms nano ultra low latency streams for watching movies,... they are insane. they want to be extraordinary high speed traders but with movies not stocks. insane