[defrost]

Can you remind us whether this bus attack in which 11 people died came before or after the 1948-1949 Plan Dalet during which over 500 Arab villages were destroyed or depopulated by military forces under the direction of later first prime minister of Israel David Ben-Gurion?

  The plan's tactics involved laying siege to Palestinian Arab villages, bombing neighbourhoods of cities, forced expulsion of their inhabitants, and setting fields and houses on fire and detonating TNT in the rubble to prevent any return. Zionist military units possessed detailed lists of neighborhoods and villages to be destroyed and their Arab inhabitants expelled.

  This strategy is subject to controversy, with some historians characterizing it as defensive, while others assert that it was an integral part of a planned strategy for the expulsion, sometimes called an ethnic cleansing, of the area's native inhabitants.  

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plan_Dalet

Israelis and Palestinians are largely in the reality they're in due to the violence.

[YZF]

Why are we moving the goal posts?

Parent claims the violence is simply due to:

"The idea of Hamas wouldn't exist if Gaza (and the West Bank) wasn't occupied by land, air and sea; their land stolen on a daily basis, and Palestinian people treated as subhuman animals."

This is not true. And this is what I'm addressing in my reply.

We can litigate 1948 as well. Plenty of Palestinian violence pre-1948. Their refusal to accept the UN's partition plan (which was a lot more generous than the two state solution people are talking about today).

EDIT: Also I hope you're not trying to say that Israel's actions during the war in 1948 (even if we accept they were in the wrong, which I do not) justify boarding a bus and slaughtering civilians 6 years later.

Your last statement I guess is true but not helpful. Plenty of violence to go around.

[michaelsshaw]

All military actions made by oppressed peoples is legitimate resistance and your framing of Palestinians as instigators is troubling.

[HDThoreaun]

The problem with this framing is that it will never lead to the palestinians accomplishing their goals. As long as they continue to commit terrorism against israel israel will continue to oppress them and annex their land until the genocide becomes a reality and all the palestinians are dead or in a diaspora. No one will stop israel as long as they can credibly make a security argument. You may claim the same is true in a non violent plan but it is 100% guaranteed on the current path. So sure, the resistance is legitimate, that doesnt mean it is helpful to their cause though.

[gryzzly]

not wearing uniform, attacking civilians, capturing hostages and holding your own civilian population hostage by violently taking over the commercial distribution of free humanitarian aid can not be called legitimate in any way

[tdeck]

The IDF captures Palestinian civilians, dresses them in IDF uniforms, and forces them at gunpoint to walk in front of their military while conducting military operations in Gaza. Every accusation is a confession.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2024/11/03/israel-gaza-...

https://www.cnn.com/2024/10/24/middleeast/palestinians-human...

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/israeli-soldier-palestinians-hu...

[YZF]

None of the articles say what you claim. There's no mention of dressing civilians in IDF uniforms. The claim is they are forced to enter suspected booby trapped building, not "conducting military operations". It's quite possible that this happens sometimes, and yes it's not supposed to, but that's war for you.

From the CNN article btw: "The soldier said that he and his comrades refused to carry on with the practice after two days and confronted their senior commander about it. Their commander, who first told them not to “think about international law,” saying that their own lives were “more important,” ultimately relented, releasing the two Palestinians, the soldier said. "

This goes to show you to what degree Israeli soldiers do consider the international law and these sort of moral questions. They would rather risk their own lives. But yes, over a long war of this kind the threshold is going to become lower. It's the Hamas choice to keep fighting the way it does (booby trap every civilians building e.g.).

Now find me the Hamas "soldier" who refused to carry out orders to murder civilians or refused to hold civilian hostages and got their commander to free them. Let's see where's the moral equivalence.

[dttze]

From that same CNN article:

> “They dressed us in military uniforms, put a camera on us, and gave us a metal cutter,” he said. “They would ask us to do things like, ‘move this carpet,’ saying they were looking for tunnels. ‘Film under the stairs,’ they would say. If they found something, they would tell us to bring it outside. For example, they would ask us to remove belongings from the house, clean here, move the sofa, open the fridge, and open the cupboard.”

[michaelsshaw]

You're right, Hamas should focus on uniform production(they wear uniform bandanas BTW, watch their videos) while Gaza has a higher proportion of destroyed buildings than Germany in ww2. You certainly got your priorities straight.

[YZF]

They have other problems that are higher priority apparently: "A 22-year-old Palestinian man was tortured and killed by Hamas militants after he criticized the group publicly and participated in rare anti-Hamas protests in Gaza, his family said.

Uday Rabie was taken last week by dozens of armed fighters with Hamas’ military wing, the Al-Qassam Brigades, in the Tal al-Hawa neighborhood of Gaza City, his brother Hassan Rabie told CNN on Tuesday." - https://www.cnn.com/2025/04/01/middleeast/uday-rabie-palesti...

And by the way, while they do have uniform, they don't wear them when they fight. Only for celebrations like their marching of civilian hostages. Gaza also has a higher proportion of structures used for military purposes (like all of them?) then Germany in WW2. There have been cities in Germany during WW-II that have been completely destroyed - we can pick that as a comparison. Picking entire Germany vs a tiny area is not reasonable.

[int_19h]

Not massacring civilians by the hundreds would be a good start.

[michaelsshaw]

And what about by the tens of thousands?

[za3faran]

Easy to refute, here it is from Sheikh Ahmed Yassin himself: https://x.com/incontextmedia/status/1720877046664986750

[YZF]

Right and this is exactly why the Hamas covenant says: "The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, (evidently a certain kind of tree) would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews." (related by al-Bukhari and Moslem).

I mean he must just love the Jewish people. Lovely guy indeed.

[za3faran]

Do not take texts out of context, I'll leave it at that.