[arrosenberg]

Wrong. We do want someone who will break rules when the rules are there to stop the government from serving its' constituents. So glad they kept the filibuster; so glad they listened to the Senate Parliamentarian; so glad they followed the process and anointed Kamala. Look at where worshipping the process lead.

[pseudalopex]

> Wrong. We do want someone who will break rules when the rules are there to stop the government from serving its' constituents.

Some of you do. Some of you don't. Most of you want of you presidents to obey courts at least.[1]

> So glad they kept the filibuster

In 2013 Democrats eliminated the 60 vote requirement for most nominations. In 2022 all but 2 Democrats voted to eliminate it for some legislation. Who kept it was 100% of Republicans, Sinema, and Manchin.

Some people who sounded like you said Democrats could have and should have blackmailed Sinema and Manchin to get 50 votes. They couldn't explain what would have stopped Sinema or Manchin from defecting to the Republicans.

[1] https://www.reuters.com/world/us/majority-americans-believe-...

[arrosenberg]

Courts, sure. Your story is an perfect example of where half-measures led the party, so I’m not sure why you brought that up.

[shadowgovt]

Because once you start breaking rules you don't get to control when it stops.

If we're blackmailing Senators, what do we do when the courts step in to stop it?

Breaking the process leads to a pyrrhic victory. It's France going from guillotining the king to guillotining feminists. If that's one's goal, rejoice! The man in charge right now is the best opportunity since the adoption of America's Constitution in the first place to get there.

ETA: As a side question on this topic: let's assume the Democrats, upon finding that Biden wouldn't be willing to serve, found some way to re-run the primary. We'll magically ignore the massive cost to do so and the fact that it would be illegal to use the voting apparatus of most states in a surprise out-of-band second primary, and we'll magically assume they could organize and pull it off in time for the general election. Who would have come out of that process that would have beaten Trump?

[arrosenberg]

We didn't get to control where it stops by following the process either, at least we could have had a hand on the wheel. You are advocating for bringing a knife to a gun fight.

For what its' worth, by the time Biden was elected, the party was already dead. It would have realized that in 2020 if Trump hadn't messed up COVID so badly. The best example of what I am talking about is Obama not seating Merrick Garland on the court and daring the Senate to stop him.

[shadowgovt]

Believe me, I would have loved to have seen hands on wheels. It'd be great if people who cared about the Democratic party messing up would actually bother to show up to breathe some life into the party; party events are published, offices have addresses, local and state government positions go up for election far more often than Presidents do.

Instead, I saw Americans stay home, again, and Trump get elected, again. It would appear, sadly, Americans are getting the government they're willing to put in the effort to have. All the resources in the world to stop these circumstances and they didn't use them.

Ah, well. Pax Americana was a pretty good run. We got the Internet out of it. Hopefully, the reshuffling of global power into something that replaces it will be even better.

[arrosenberg]

We gave Democrats the whole government in 2008 and 2020 - they refuse to wield power. But sure, blame the voters for being disaffected by their failure, I’m sure that’ll move things in the right direction.