[Sammi]

Yeah this really exposes how empty and vapid the praise and criticism you see of stuff here is. Of course there are some people here who are well known to be substantial in their experience, but sooo many people clearly are not. The vast majority are just superficial and you can and should ignore them.

[bunderbunder]

For my part, I've never used it in anger. But I like to praise it because it represents a hint of what I wish my tooling were like, and would like to see this concept of moldable development spread outside of the Pharo community. Not just in terms of using it for other languages, but also building it on top of other languages

There are a lot of things I like about Smalltalk, but the parent poster is right, Python is a more practical choice. Not really because it's better-known so much as because it's procedural. Smalltalk is so all-in on object-oriented programming that it puts me in the wrong mental space for just banging out throwaway code for getting a question answered quickly. Instead I'm constantly being pulled toward all this "clean architecture clean code" thinking because that's just such a big factor in my headspace for object-oriented programming. Even if I don't succumb to it, it's still a drain on my executive function.

And then yes, agreed, building on Pharo's UI system is a problem. That's frankly something that the Smalltalk community needs to get away from across the board. It's just too clunky by modern standards. And it would take a lot to convince me to agree to adopting a Pharo-based tool like this at work, out of fear that all the non-native UI stuff would become a major source of accessibility barriers. And I don't quite understand why the Pharo community seems to be so convinced that it's a necessary part of the image-based development paradigm, when lisp has been doing images without tight coupling to a single baked-in graphical IDE for decades.

I keep thinking maybe all it needs to be is something like an extension (or alternative) to the language server protocol for exposing some of the intermediate code analysis artifacts back to the developer. And then I can happily bang on that from a Jupyter notebook.

[gugagore]

> But I like to praise it because it represents a hint of what I wish my tooling were like, and would like to see this concept of moldable development spread outside of the Pharo community.

You might like this talk! "Liberating the Smalltalk lurking in C and Unix - Stephen Kell" https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33130701

[cess11]

The absolute majority of Pharo code I've written has been quite procedural and throwaway in character. It's a tool I pull up for a bit of exotic exploratory programming against some remote API or file, typically just a 'script' in whatever the window is called.

In part because it's much easier to boot a fresh image and start hacking than some python3 -m venv incantation that sometimes breaks or breaks something else. There's a lack of libraries though, and now it might be easy to just point the image to a remote git repo to import it but I'm not sure, if it isn't other languages has it easier. At least when you can just copy the algorithm into a file and put the right formula at the top and start using it.

[pjmlp]

A small correction, though.

Python looks procedural, however since the new object model was introduced in 2.2 with the original approach removed in 3.0, that it is OOP to its bones, even when people don't realize it.

[bunderbunder]

It is, but it still has really good ergonomics for a procedural-first development style, and in many respects that still feels more natural in Python than a fully object-oriented style.

By contrast, Smalltalk is so deeply object-oriented that it doesn't technically even have an if statement, just instance methods in the boolean class.

[igouy]

And the vast majority of the time, we just pretend it's a weird syntax if-statement.

The practical importance is that we use the same tools to search for implementers and senders of #ifTrue: as we use to search for implementers and senders of any other method. (We use the same pencil to sketch that we use to write.)

[igouy]

> Smalltalk is so all-in on object-oriented programming that it puts me in the wrong mental space for just banging out throwaway code for getting a question answered quickly.

otoh I can see what you mean.

otoh I can see someone start "banging out throwaway code" and testing it in less than 2 minutes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mXoxfmcDDJM

[tudorgirba]

In the meantime, you can use Lepiter pages and program Python from there and inspect Python objects with inspector views defined either in Python or in Pharo :).

[tudorgirba]

Are you referring to Smalltalk here or Glamorous Toolkit? :)