[beefnugs]

I feel like the reason this isn't an obvious big deal yet, is because we don't have in real life the ideal use case: which would be a really complex vehicle ( like a real world mech). Something that needs a bunch of tweakable manufacturer control systems, but also massive customization through customer code. And maybe this will never exist, because capitalism is all about vendor lock in.

[tudorgirba]

We actually have quite a number of real life use cases. For example, in one company it's being in used as the only development environment for 100+ developers. We also use it for making sense of and modernize legacy systems that people do not know what to do with anymore.

[photonthug]

I think you're on to something here. Squeak/Pharo were/are in many ways an interesting and sort of obvious base for building things like IDEs, DAWs, CAD systems, other things that are heavy on interactivity, visualizations, and components. I don't know for sure, but it seems like there would be enough escape hatches for interoperability so it's not like you'd be actually be required to do everything in small talk, and certainly there's FFI (https://books.pharo.org/booklet-uffi/ ). Empowering user customization and such is actually a big downside for commercial activities though. The last paragraph here ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smalltalk#Image-based_persiste... ) is directly raising the concern of how things can stay proprietary.

Besides that.. increasingly devs themselves are very commercial and not exactly in it for the love of the game. They are actively hostile towards stuff that isn't pushed on them by business, and not very interested in creative activity that pushes the bounds of the possible. I think you can see some of this in the insistence on "it's just a notebook" comparisons here, but before that.. docker was also "just another VM" to most until it was absolutely too big to ignore. It's more than comparing to what you know, it's almost actively refusing to be curious / interested. So maybe it's burnout from unnecessary churn in tech, or maybe people just resist entertaining the idea that interesting new ideas are even possible until it's pretty directly affecting their ability to be hired. Maybe both.

[tudorgirba]

In Glamorous Toolkit we have extensive infrastructure to interoperate with Rust. In fact, the main app is a Rust app that relies on several other Rust plugins. The Pharo Virtual Machine is used as a library :).

I enjoy your comparison with Docker. Indeed, the comparison to what you know is inevitable and it works quite well for incremental news. It works less well for new. But it's still on us, the authors, to try to find ways to communicate differently to appeal to a larger audience especially as our goal is to educate. I am also of the opinion that the most interesting path is to get someone to create outsized value that cannot be ignored. Our current focus is to find those initial someones :).