[swalling]

These cuts are particularly nasty because federal spending on public trail maintenance is already razor thin. A ton of the Pacific Crest Trail and other scenic trails are already primarily maintained by volunteer groups doing work like log clearing, brush removal, and tread work. Trail users ourselves—hikers, mountain bikers, or trail runners—already put in hundreds of volunteer hours every season doing the basic trail work, and that's just regular seasonal maintenance. Significant work rebuilding parts of the Appalachian Trail and PCT after wildfires or hurricanes will likely not happen this year, or for years to come, unless volunteers fill in more gaps.

[phyzix5761]

Can we start a non profit where people can donate for things like this so we can actually get funding without relying on government?

[grg0]

Let's also pool some money to help the sick pay for health care, the young pay for education and those affected by layoffs tackle the transition. Heck, we could even start our own government.

[sneak]

You know what makes the government the government, right?

You’re missing the key piece.

[grg0]

It'll be a government for the people, by the people.

[sneak]

Those people will have to be well-armed.

[grg0]

Don't worry, we'll get help from the French and the Spanish.

[mikevm]

[flagged]

[grg0]

Sure. We don't pay tax to you, though. We can be trade buddies.

[fires10]

Are the libertarians and right wingers going to not use the services they don't want to pay for? Or receive the benefits? Are they going to leave the educated society and start their own somewhere else?

[grg0]

They won't pay for anything but they will receive all the benefits at your expense. That's probably what he meant with win/win.

[card_zero]

Hey, I don't see why libertarians shouldn't join in. This is essentially a guild.

For example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Worshipful_Company_of_Security...

[rchaud]

Such a nonprofit exists, it's called the federal government.

Maybe the super-rich can create their own nonprofit to fund commercial space tourism or whatever absurdity they've deemed so important that it needs spending elsewhere to be cut and diverted to them.

[phyzix5761]

The government has proven to be extremely inefficient at managing our money. Look at how little they care about the trails. If we want actual money to go places we care about we have to do it ourselves.

We can hold non profits accountable in ways that we can't with the government. Accountability in government takes 4-6 years when we get an election cycle. If a non profit is mismanaging funds it takes 4-6 minutes for me to give my money to a different non profit.

[999900000999]

At this point why don’t we just go back to the Articles of Confederation.

If we accept the federal government can’t do anything what are we paying taxes for? Get rid of social security too, I’m not going to make it to whatever stupidly high age they raise retirement to.

I used to be a big government liberal, but the problem is eventually people you disagree with start running super government.

[paulryanrogers]

The federal government does an amazing number of things despite some inefficiencies. FEMA, FDA, EPA, SEC, FTC, FCC, national defense, interstate highways, border security (for better and worse), social security, Medicaid, Medicare, maintain embassies, foreign diplomacy, etc. As these things are gutted their absence or lack of capacity will be felt for decades.

[999900000999]

I’m thinking these responsibilities can be shifted to the states. That’s defacto what’s going to happen as the federal government keeps cutting services.

If I want to live in a high tax state with a social safety net, cool. Others can move to Mississippi pay no taxes and brag about how they have a higher GPD than Spain ignoring the actual quality of life is much worse

[paulryanrogers]

Good for them I guess. I prefer a country where I don't have to move as the political winds change, just to maintain rights and benefits my ancestors fought for.

[int_19h]

There's no such country. Authoritarianism is always around the corner, because the only thing that really prevents society from slipping into it is broad social consensus that it's undesirable, and you can't guarantee that it will remain long term. Constitutions etc fundamentally are just pieces of paper; they matter only to the extent people choose to believe they do.

[fzeroracer]

I don't disagree with you, but it's the political reality of the situation being foisted upon us with violence by the far right. That was one of the reasons why I left Texas ASAP in late 2022 when I saw the winds changing.

The systems are cracking and breaking and I think the only outcome is going to be balkanization.

[int_19h]

Fun fact: Canadian healthcare system, which generally tends to be the envy of US liberals, originated on provincial level and is still run primarily by the provinces.

[embedded_hiker]

There are many local, and not-so-local, groups that do this volunteer trail maintenance, and they could definitely use some monetary donations. There is the PCTA, mentioned up-thread ( pcta.org ). I volunteer for Trailkeepers of Oregon, based in Portland, and is active in many parts of the state. trailkeepersoforegon.org . There is also the Washington trails Association, and many more.

[phyzix5761]

That's what I'm encouraging but people wanna downvote because they're convinced government is doing a great job with our money.

[emptybits]

This feels like the trend of Americans having to start GoFundMe campaigns for surgeries and health care. (!) I mean, do what you feel you have to do in the urgent moment. But come on. What's the plan? This is not civilized.

[chgs]

You work towards reality tv where you vote on who lives and who dies. Used to be the domain of things like black mirror but the reality is coming far sooner than you think.

[int_19h]

What would you suggest? I mean, we have a legitimate government that has been duly elected in what everyone broadly recognizes were free and fair elections. It just happens to be a government of crazies and grifters who our neighbors genuinely believe can save the country (whatever that means to them).

[SoftTalker]

I kind of like the idea of the people using the trails paying for them in kind.

[2muchcoffeeman]

I’ve read some exchanges from an American friend with their other American friends on social media years ago. I noticed that many of the people were very against the idea of people they don’t think are deserving from benefiting from them. Even in abstract ways. For example people getting welfare who are actually scamming the system. Or having an outside benefit, like poor people getting free healthcare even if they can’t pay taxes. Trails would have been a good example for this group, “why am I paying for trails I don’t use?”.

I have a hypothesis that Americans are so scared of others benefitting from themselves that they miss that many, many more people are deserving and it makes for a better society. But they don’t see that and would rather punish the deserving and themselves, if it means the undeserving will hurt more. I think this thinking also bleeds into your social justice movements.

[thechao]

There's a very vocal segment of Americans — I live among many of them — who very much believe this. It's not all Americans.

[TimorousBestie]

It’s enough of us. A couple pockets of pro-community mutualists here and there don’t make enough of a difference to influence domestic policy.

[swalling]

You don’t have to be communist to believe in maintaining public access to publicly-owned lands. Turns out National Parks, national forests, state parks, campgrounds, etc attract millions of people annually, and most of us are very glad that access is for everyone. As taxpayers we in fact pay for that public infrastructure, just like we pay for roads.

[9dev]

It’s really a weird effect. Like, how enjoyable even is a world where you’re rich, but surrounded by poor, uneducated, sick people, and all you can do is stay inside because the outside is caustic and ravaged?

Is it too much mental gymnastics that it’s a lot more interesting to talk to happy, sophisticated, educated people? To enjoy maintained public parks? To learn from the past in museums that present all kinds of viewpoints? To have a strong workforce that is confidently going to the doctor?

I’ll never get what’s so hard about things affecting other things, even if it doesn’t immediately yield a profit.

[2muchcoffeeman]

These people understand this. However they are not willing to have waste in the system. They want to help exactly who needs help and not scammers. If this cannot be done, then help no one.

I’m all for having better checks and stopping fraud. But not at the expense of helping no one. I’d rather keep a system running even if there is waste as long as it mostly works.

[d0gsg0w00f]

The problem is that the people who aren't contributing forget who is actually contributing and start tearing down the system because they have no clue how the world works anymore.

[LadyCailin]

Given how it’s mostly states that take more from the federal government than they give, that are trying to destroy the federal government, my view on keeping the federal government has begun to soften. If Mississippi actively wants to shoot themselves in the foot, at some point, you just have to give up trying to disrupt their plan. Of course not everyone in Mississippi wants that, and many people who don’t will be seriously negatively affected, and won’t have the means to move, so they are why my position hasn’t changed yet.

[Matheus28]

Yeah, let’s make road users spend a couple days a year pouring asphalt as well. It’s only fair

[SoftTalker]

The difference of course is that almost everyone uses or benefits from the economy of roads. Relatively very few people use trails and they use them for personal enjoyment.

[chimpanzee]

You really can’t think of any ancillary benefits to the presence of accessible nature?

I feel like this sort of comment (from someone with 14k+ “karma” points) is a kind of DoS attack on their self-perceived opponents.

But nonetheless, here’s three benefits for all, regardless of usage:

- reduction in healthcare costs, both physical and mental

- increased tourism

- increased appreciation for environment which in turn loops back into this list from the top

Just focusing on health alone has wide ranging benefits. And if all you care about are tax revenues and GDP, a healthy, happy workforce goes quite a way to improving both.

I’m not going to list anymore because I got other things to do and think about. And this isn’t going to change your mind anyways.

[peter422]

The number of people who use state and federal parks in a given year is roughly equal to the number of people who fly.

It’s definitely a few notches above “very few”.

[Freedom2]

I wonder if the parent to this comment is another "I don't use trails, so no one does!".

If you actually walk along a few trails on a regular cadence, it's clear that there are many different people - it's not just the same people every weekend.

[throwaway173738]

The real difference is that people in cities pay huge amounts of tax to support the roads out to a relatively few houses in the country. Roads are the biggest outlay in every county I’ve lived in.

[LadyCailin]

Then the rural people vote to get rid of state run infrastructure, and then get mad at the city slickers because they still have nice roads.

[kjkjadksj]

Relatively people use your residential street. Why not let it turn to mud then? Wider economy won't miss it.

[mrj]

Nothing wrong with a society wanting to have a nice thing and choosing to paying for it. Trails and parks are politically quite popular.

[Freedom2]

We should also make sure that anyone who hasn't paid the trail toll or contributed physically are not allowed to use it, it's also only fair.

[lurking_swe]

if we’re going to suggest silly stuff like that, let’s also suggest that cities stop subsidizing suburbs and their expansive infrastructure. sound good?

let’s take it a step further, let’s cut spending to anything that brings people joy! let’s all be crabs in a bucket together. convert public beaches to private beaches, public parks to private parks, make every school in the country a private school.

this will surely increase the well being of our society (sarcasm).

where does this crazy fallacy end? Taxes (and life) is not about min-maxing what benefits YOU personally. It’s about min-maxing your community and society. Kind of like how there is no “I” in team…

[ok_dad]

I kinda like the idea that people don’t have to pay for public land access.

[chgs]

The idea is there’s no public land. The ultra wealthy will own it all and you’ll be confined to your Manna-style death camps.

[amarcheschi]

You will not be confined, you will have the freedom of choice whether to do that or be coerced into doing that

[mauvehaus]

We do.

- Moped

GA-ME 2010

Volunteer maintainer Smarts Mountain Ranger Trail (AT side trail) 2021-present.

Landowner and volunteer maintainer on the Cross Rivendell Trail (CRT) 2023-present

My wife, who also thru-hiked the AT, before we met is on the CRT board.

We spent three days of our vacation in 2023 helping to re-roof Jeffers Brook Shelter on the AT.

We are also members of the ATC, GMC, MATC, and PCTA and have been for some combination of those between us since before we met.

ETA:

Oh yeah, also two weeks ago we helped hump a 200 pound bear box in to Velvet Rocks Shelter on the AT.

[0xTJ]

Yes. That's how it works. They're called taxes.