[N2yhWNXQN3k9]

There is very little evidence for this. IMO, it is feel good advice that sounds right.

Try background noise of any sort, until you find a fit.

I can't pay attention to anything anymore without noise. A little rumble in thy ears does wonders.

I severely question anecdotes that pair programming does anything other than motivate you to not look like a moron wasting time in front of someone else (in the context of ADHD -- there are other uses for it).

That isn't a viable strategy for growth, imo.

Also, if you are new to taking stimulants, you might be surprised how much worse it gets later in life, especially if you have been taking them since youth. There is a non-zero cost (I would say a sacrifice) to treating ADHD with amphetamines or other dopamine reuptake inhibitors / dopamingenics.

If you doubt this, there is very little mention of body doubling in literature outside of blogs:

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/?term=%20%22Body%20Doubling%...

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/?term=%22Body%20Double%22%20...

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/?term=%22Body%20Double%22%

[viraptor]

> I severely question anecdotes that pair programming does anything other than motivate you to not look like a moron wasting time in front of someone else

So... you're basically saying it works? Because that's what it does in practice. The other person is the external motivator for keeping attention on the task.

> you might be surprised how much worse it gets later in life, especially if you have been taking them since youth

Got any support for that? (Not being dismissive; never heard of that beyond the usual "effectiveness goes down over time")

> If you doubt this, there is very little mention of body doubling in literature outside of blogs:

Yup, there's still little in terms of specific research, but if you look at the papers about externalising motivation/triggers... it's close to a specific implementation of those ideas rather than a separate thing.

[N2yhWNXQN3k9]

> So... you're basically saying it works?

Working under pressure isn't a viable therapy, IMO. In my experience, it is a path to burn out and diminishing returns.

> Got any support for that?

Anecdotally, ~25 years of eating them, but there is plenty of evidence that prolonged use of amphetamine causes structural neuronal changes, even at therapeutic doses.

Here is one article: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/38665308/

> you look at the papers about externalising motivation/triggers

What papers? What do they say?

Also, fear (an external motivator) is a great way to release catecholamines for positive outcomes in ADHD, but it is also a great way to increase general stress, which has many other outcomes (free cortisol changes, etc).

[pjerem]

> Working under pressure isn't a viable therapy, IMO. In my experience, it is a path to burn out and diminishing returns.

Except that pair programming doesn’t make you work under pressure. I extensively use this technique for body doubling as much as I can. It motivates me to start the task and I also love the exchange : you can learn things, teach things, be stuck together, find solutions together, swear together, laugh, agree on how horrible is this thing you must fix …

In fact it’s what I’d call real teamwork. I never felt it like pressure and it gives me a lot of energy.

Incidentally, I think the only friends I made at work (the real friends you invite at home even when you don’t work at the same place anymore) were through frequent pair programming sessions. I think there is something about knowing how the other person thinks that helps bonding together.

[N2yhWNXQN3k9]

> Except that pair programming doesn’t make you work under pressure

Sure, in ideal circumstances.

Do you remember your first day on a job anywhere as a programmer? You were so relaxed, no pressure.

It sounds like you have an emotional attachment to pair programming. That is cool, but it certainly isn't the norm.

[viraptor]

> Working under pressure isn't a viable therapy,

None of ADHD related stuff is really therapy. We only know how to manage symptoms for now.

> Anecdotally

Yeah...

> prolonged use of amphetamine causes structural neuronal changes

Sure. But is it worse than unmanaged ADHD which also results in brain changes over time?

> What papers? What do they say?

It's a whole category, but you could start with this collection:

https://www.connectedpapers.com/main/00e762a8efd5581c93afcb8...

Every time ADHD coaching is mentioned, part of that process is learning planning ahead for distractions, part is learning to externalise reminders / triggers and hacking the reward functions. Maybe there's some paper which tests each of those in isolation, but I'm not going to dig that deep. In aggregate, ADHD coaching has positive results. Pairing is an extreme version of one part of it.

> Also, fear (an external motivator)

Pairing with others shouldn't involve fear. It's just two people being able to share and communicate the motivation to initiate the next step / question. If it causes you actual stress, either you're doing it with a wrong person, or it may just not be for you.

[N2yhWNXQN3k9]

> None of ADHD related stuff is really therapy. We only know how to manage symptoms for now.

Managing symptoms is therapy?

>> Anecdotally

> Yeah...

Then ignore everything that came after that?

> Sure. But is it worse than unmanaged ADHD which also results in brain changes over time?

Physiologically, yes? I am honestly concerned for people who think eating amphetamine or similar drugs daily has no negative outcomes.

> It's a whole category, but you could start with this collection:

There is zero mention of anything discussed here in that root paper, but cool information bomb. No one is going to read 40 papers to respond to you. Honestly, that is a dickhead thing to share.

> shouldn't involve fear

If you've never felt nervous (fear) while pair programming, you might be experiencing a bit of over-confidence.

[wavemode]

What is at all strange about wanting to work near other people so you keep each other motivated to remain focused? It's not magic, and it's not a treatment for ADHD (nor a replacement for such). It's just a common sense response to living in an age where everyone works from home isolated. Some people just work better with company.

> If you doubt this, there is very little mention of body doubling in literature outside of blogs

Wow, I sure better stop doing everything in my life that there isn't literature on.

[N2yhWNXQN3k9]

Yeah, I mean, saying stuff like this is polarizing.

[zeristor]

Good points.

Meds. They never quite worked for me, others have noticed a change, but not me; and the side effects became too intrusive.

Working under pressure, I guess this is an issue for me. As mentioned it can be a load on the person you’re pairing with, but so often I can unlock skills pairing with someone that neither of us can ordinarily access.