[codemonkey-zeta]

Yeah anyone criticizing the mass incarceration in El Salvador as unjust should really familiarize themselves with the crimes of the gangs down there. The obliteration of a social scourge in a single presidency was nothing short of miraculous. That's why Bukele was re-elected at the highest levels in history - his people genuinely love him for it. The right to a fair trial is great in places that have law and order, but when you witness beheadings, mass executions, torture, etc. daily, you won't miss that right at all.

[overfeed]

> you won't miss that right at all.

Until the day the goons break down your door and drag you away. Then you'll wish you had a fair trial. "It'll never happen to me if I keep may head down" will ensure no one will feel safe about publicly opposing the president on any issue.

Your dictator is not special, most of them concentrate their power by claiming to address an issue that's legitimately concerns a lot of citizens; Idi Amin expelled Asians under cover of addressing inequality.

[ethbr1]

That fails to understand how power in exceptional situations persists: namely that it still must be supported by key stakeholders.

If a leader were to summarily arrest large numbers of random citizens, suddenly they'd lose the support of citizens, one of the key pillars keeping them in power.

Which is why you see empowered and pervasive secret police institutions in societies like this -- you require a credible and effective alternative to popular support.

[overfeed]

> That fails to understand how power in exceptional situations persists

I was describing how dictators concentrate power to themselves using reasonable-sounding pretexts during the initial stages of self-coups, not how the regimes use the acquired powers to self-sustain.

> ...suddenly they'd lose the support of citizens, one of the key pillars keeping them in power.

Dictators, and political incumbents in general don't need support (in a positive, active sense) to go about the business of exercising political power they already wield.

On the flip side, they need a lack of unified opposition to avoid being voted out/toppled, hence dictators lean on corrupting the courts, use the secret police to disappear opposition, and the like. Autocrats will be very happy with a 0.05% approval/99.9% disapproval ratings, as long as their physical security is not threatened by riotous mobs, and their political power unchallenged.

[amy214]

Exactly, this is analogous to "sensitivity/specificity" of a test, the test is if they can be trusted to live autonomously in society

- most sensitive: arrest everyone you suspect, lots of innocents locked up - trade-off : some innocents locked up - most specific: arrest only people you are 100% sure are criminals, lots of them get let off due to lack of evidence / inability to prove

You can frame it as a moral question, lock up 100% of criminals and 1 innocent person, or 0 innocent people and only 50% of criminals.

There is a separate, more subjective argument that knowingly locking up innocents is a slippery slope that will lead to a corrupt state.

From a pure ethics standpoint, this is "fruit from the poisoned tree" i.e. doing something unethical to achieve positive result, in this case, locking up an innocent to cause crime to plummet.

One thing is for sure, if he went back up for election and got in through strong popular support, the society replied and said they support living in such an environment. If more innocents are locked up maybe the feedback would change.

[EMIRELADERO]

As someone who generally opposes Bukele on an ideological level, I'm not even that mad about the mass sweeps themselves. The way things were going before, it was obvious a drastic solution was needed.

It's the CECOT conditions and the boasting about cruel treatment that I'm unhappy about. At this point it's plain torture, and I believe it's wrong to torture people, even if those people are themselves torturers or worse.

[TheCleric]

I think anyone who is innocent but in jail probably misses the right to a fair trial.